International flying

[PropStop]

I used to roam around on the long wire when we weren't spitting buoys and figure out what all the other stations were doing. I was the only AO in my squadron who got qual'd on the radar and I would go up to the Nav/Tacco stations and mess around with them.

You were an AO? But you can write a full sentence!

Cats and dogs living together, what’s happening to the world?!

Propstop <--AVARM

 

[East]

..... I have been told many times never to sit back and patiently watch a pilot do something right after saying, "Trust me and watch this..." This must have been before the days of CRM...
quote]


"Been there, done that...and don't do it. Will end up in a nasty discussion"

Here's some research on CRM which was deleted by the Mod's last time I post it:


MILITARY PILOTS are not necessarily poor pilots, but they are trained to achieve their mission by taking risks, whereas civilian airline pilots are required by law to achieve their's taking none. For this reason, military pilots need to be completely retrained on joining an airline, a process most Western airlines perform successfully. However, many Asian airlines are predominately staffed by ex-military pilots who bring to the airline an ethos of risk taking and an over-confidence in their abilities and this ethos infects the whole organisation. KAL is a classic example of this problem as revealed by the audit.
Not all pilots can make it as airline pilots. Some of the older pilots (generally military) are unable to adapt the CRM requirements of the airline cockpit as their "single pilot skills" are too deeply ingrained to allow them to adapt to the team work required of today's airline cockpit. There may also be problems with flying skills or English. The company should offer remedial training where possible. However, crew that cannot adapt or consistently produce a substandard performance must be relieved of a cockpit position. They may be sent to another department in the airline. In today's modern high tech, high-speed airline cockpit, there is NO PLACE for any substandard performer, regardless of background.

When the Captain asks the FO to do something, e.g. Weather avoidance, the FO will check with the FE to get his permission as well. The FE, in the FO's eyes is more senior than a Foreign Captain or for that matter a new Korean Captain on the fleet. This is an untenable situation.

While departing Anchorage recently, 4.00 am, OAT 9C, rain and wind, the Captain briefed that he required nacelle anti ice after start. The FE said it was not required and that using the nacelle anti ice with the TAT at 12C, would damage the engines.
The FE informed the Captain that he was a professional of many years, and that he was right as this was his job, and the Captain was wrong to require it.
The Captain tried to explain that on the ground TAT and OAT are the same. TAT takes into account ram effect and as they were stationary, there is no difference. The TAT read 12C due to residual heat from the TAT probe heater after the last flight. With an OAT of 9C and visible moisture present, icing conditions indeed existed and nacelle anti ice was required. The Captain explained that use of anti ice above 10C does not damage engines as far as he was aware and it is always better to err on the side of safety in such matters.
The FE would not buy the reasoning and was insulted as a professional by this decision. The Captain had to demand the anti ice be turned on after start in the interests of safety. Sadly CRM was compromised as a result and there was the minimum of communication and input from the FE on the remainder of the flight. (8hrs.)The FO would never get involved in a situation such as this as the FE is senior and any input would be seen as disrespectful to the FE.


Korean FO's would NEVER speak up if a Korean Captain made a mistake, as it would certainly end his career due to causing loss of face.

Crew members, particularly on the 744, 777 and A330 are expected to socialize with the Captain on layovers. This includes being forced to consume alcohol against their wishes, being expected to purchase and prepare meals for the Captain, and when required purchase "gifts" for the Captain. This has caused enormous resentment from the crew members. The resentment is a substantial cause of communications breakdown on the flight deck and obviously is an obstacle to any form of CRM development. Any protest against conforming with the above requirements will have a detrimental effect on the crew members career.

If a crew member has good flying skills it does not mean that he should be made a Captain. Captains in today's cockpits are "Managers" and as such it takes many years as a FO to develop these management skills. There is no substitute for experience. This process typically takes 10 years on various aircraft types, operating in a good training environment, with good Captains as role models, to be achieved.

CRM should be incorporated into all aspects of Korean Air's operation. This includes management, training, safety and discipline. Sadly, CRM doesn't seem to leave the ground school building.

FE must be more supportive and interact with the crew during all phases of flight. He must get involved up front. He is an important and valuable crew member.

Captains must be trained as aircraft "managers" and must delegate responsibility and manage resources to conduct a safe operation under adverse conditions. This obviously requires that all crew are competent, current and proficient.

Strict observation of power gradient in the cockpit must be observed, CAPT, FO, FE. Under no circumstances should the FE give weather avoidance instructions to the FO in Korean when flying with a Foreign Captain. Check list responses for all crew should also be done in this order.

 

[Brett327]

You were an AO? But you can write a full sentence!

Cats and dogs living together, what’s happening to the world?!

Propstop <--AVARM

Last generation of IFOs, last of a bygone era of real ASW. HAL and a couple others know what I'm talking about. I was AV/ARM too, BTW and my AOs hated me. Sucks to not be able to BS your DIVO.

Brett

 

[Tom]

As for the RNP thing, haven't a clue what you're talking about.

Require Navigation Perfomance. New stuff coming in for navigation with the popularity and accuracy of GPS/GNSS equipment increasing. I leave it to wikipedia for an explanation. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Required_Navigation_Performance

 

[KSUFLY]

Require Navigation Perfomance. New stuff coming in for navigation with the popularity and accuracy of GPS/GNSS equipment increasing. I leave it to wikipedia for an explanation. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Required_Navigation_Performance

RNP is just the required parameters for navigation on RNAV which is obtained through GPS. You have to be able to find out the performance of the GPS/CDI to use the RNAV for navigation and especially on the approach. For example, it's 5nm for enroute, 1 nm for termanal area (within 30 miles from departure or arrival) and .3 nm for the final approach on a GPS approach. The next generation of approaches will have a RNP of .11 nm for approach and require certain a/c equipment and aircrew training.

 

[sundevil_av8r]

A4's, what where you flying?

 

[HAL Pilot]

Yeah, I can imagine that getting the FO a little worked up seeing as he had no military experience. I have been told many times never to sit back and patiently watch a pilot do something right after saying, "Trust me and watch this..." This must have been before the days of CRM...

This is just plain horse shit. This is not a CRM issue. Offsetting in one direction or another to climb or descend past a slower aircraft while maintaining visual separation is normal and safe. The only difference here is that it was in a non-radar environment and most pilots never think to ask permission to do this. Something out of the ordinary - yes. Dangerous or a break down in CRM - No. A4s got a clearance for heaven's sake. If it was dangerous or illegal, his request would have been denied.

BTW - one of the planes I am currently flying is the Citation....or Slowtation as it is affectionately called. Every other type of corporate jet and airlines routinely are given course offsets to pass me in the climb or descent. Sometimes while level at my altitude too.

 

[HAL Pilot]

Last generation of IFOs, last of a bygone era of real ASW. HAL and a couple others know what I'm talking about. I was AV/ARM too, BTW and my AOs hated me. Sucks to not be able to BS your DIVO.

Brett

I sure missed the IFO during my DH tour. Especially when we were on det somewhere. However I had a great IFT. He not only did the preflight at my station, he did type in the buoy load. But his chilli was never as good as an IFOs.....

You were an AO? But you can write a full sentence! ......Propstop <--AVARM

While many of the not so smart / no common sense non-designated airman get pawned off to the AO rate there are plenty of really smart AOs with great common sense in the community. The best Chiefs and LDOs I ever worked with were 8 out of 10 times an AO. And they're a tight bunch who police their own. If an AO Chief or LDO decides to ROAD, the rest quickly readjusts his attitude.

 

[Brett327]

I sure missed the IFO during my DH tour. Especially when we were on det somewhere. However I had a great IFT. He not only did the preflight at my station, he did type in the buoy load. But his chilli was never as good as an IFOs.....

Ahh, the big red chow box. Those were some good times.

Brett

 

[A4sForever]

A4's, what where you flying?

What was I flying ???!!! Is there anything else .... ????

 

[A4sForever]

Yeah, I can imagine that getting the FO a little worked up seeing as he had no military experience. I have been told many times never to sit back and patiently watch a pilot do something right after saying, "Trust me and watch this..." This must have been before the days of CRM...

What do you say to a FO with two black eyes?

Nothing, you already told him twice.

Well .... that's not quite how it was .... and since you don't know the answer, even with your vast wealth of light civilian experience ... why don't you just sit back and pay attention???

My young F/O ... fresh out of training and IOE ... still didn't know shit about flying the Pacific ... even though he had spent some time in the back seat as a S/O .... he just knew what the drones in training had recently taught him (I worked there for many, many years ... I know what's taught --- it's worse and "weaker" these days --- I just didn't drink the water) ... but in his defense ... most guys DON'T know half the stuff that they are suppose to .... especially when flying international.

The UAL guys didn't ... most of my contemporaries didn't .... the ARINC and ATC guys didn't .... but they checked--found out--and got back--and approved my "let's get the job done" request.

I later had the Head-Fed from the SFO ACDO sitting in my jumpseat on a subsequent crossing ... I brought up the situation and example for his input --- he said: "Absolutely!!! My guys (ATC) should have know about this procedure right from the get-go. When I have my next senior staff meeting .... I'm gonna' make sure EVERYONE knows...!"

No cowboys, no breaking any rules, no shitting in my diapers and flying for another 900 miles ... nothing over the top --- just using one's head and flying the airplane.

O.K.??? ... does that help???

 

[HooverPilot]

In the Viking I rarely had to deal with international ATC. It was all MARSA/Due regard. Now, as a COD guy, I have to deal with the international system all the time. The things we do everyday seem to cause some humorous situations with ATC. Controllers don't like USS Ship at Sea as a point of departure or destination. Gets them all worked up and confused. Africa has some of the best Non-radar environment controllers in the world who seem used to odd requests and flight plans...

 

[bunk22]

In the Viking I rarely had to deal with international ATC. It was all MARSA/Due regard. Now, as a COD guy, I have to deal with the international system all the time. The things we do everyday seem to cause some humorous situations with ATC. Controllers don't like USS Ship at Sea as a point of departure or destination. Gets them all worked up and confused. Africa has some of the best Non-radar environment controllers in the world who seem used to odd requests and flight plans...

Launching from the boat into a foriegn airspace sometimes causes some confusion. Even with a flight plan in the system. I've spent all of my overseas time in the Middle East and Asia....Asia probably has some of the worst controllers I've ever encountered. Very slow to respond as well at times. I remember launching out of Okinawa in some nasty weather, flying to the old Clark AFB in the PI then on to Malaysia and Singapore. Our COD wasn't pressurizing so we remaing at 10K. Well I had just recovered from a bad call and maybe that was the reason but I had the worst vertigo I've ever had. My co-pilot was a no-load whom I didn't trust at all. So I fought through it. The turbulence and icing wasn't that bad, a 5-6 out of 10 but my vertigo was a 10 of 10. My other COD had climbed to 13k and said it was a bit better, in and out of some of the crap. So I asked Naha for a climb. I grew tired of waiting after 10-15 minutes of no response to my request. It's barely daybreak and they just can't handle a change in altitude with our fellow COD being only 4-5 mile in front of us and same altitude as to where we want to climb. So I did the old aviate, navigate, communicate. I went ahead and climbed. The Naha controller who spoke very bad english had me transfer to another freq where the Japanese controller spoke very good english. He then proceeded to use that very good english to chew my ass on the radio for doing what I did. I lied a bit and said their lack of a timely response was unacceptable for the weather conditions and I had to climb due to the limitations of my aircraft/safety of the people onboard. If they wanted to violate, go right ahead. My BS worked and off we went. My vertigo never went away by the way. I've never had it that bad since...knock on wood.

 

[webmaster]

Good thread. For P3s, typically file in our 1801s with a remark: NON-RVSM capable, have not had any problems, its ATC or Oceanic's problem, not ours Though as stated, we typically don't fly at a Level where that may be an issue.

Fly, the highest I have flown in a P3 (with two strong EDCs) was FL33.5, and a higher drag count with two mavs on the wings. Then again, we were flying linger airspeeds for those warpig drivers out there who know what I am talking about...

Tom, Tom, Tom.... whens the last 1801 you filed? Talked to Mumbai lately? Hey, you started out strong with a good question, but man, take a step back with your newfound "knowledges" and put your crank back in your pants so it doesn't get stepped on. I'll ditto HAL's comment on "bullshit", get back to me with CRM when you have a couple in flight fires or lose an engine or two... and as already stated, A4s as always, used the system to HIS advantage, and looked good doing it (if you don't think STYLE and knowing your shit matters, then seek work elsewhere). Nothing wrong with it what he did, awesome one upsmanship on UAL, and it can be VERY frustrating on those routes getting cock blocked at a lower altitude because of some numb nuts. Heck, I have used the system too to MY ADVANTAGE with 5 planes repoing from one destination to another, and called block altitude above the plane ahead of me, and used higher power setting to climb faster and overtake them.... oh, the ranting on base freq, but we made it home before they did, and drank the beer while the 3P was out picking up more.

As for the new GPS toys.... YAWN... Tom, do you really think that the Navy is going to upgrade all our aircraft to that standard? Hell no, and not in the P3 community, I am still waiting for a the autopilot... Heck, our P3 GPS isn't certified, and routinely drops satellites in a turn. But you know what? I have two really really nice inertials, a NAV to plug and chug and back flight up on takeoffs and approaches into mins, and PAR/ILS capabilities to get back to the field through shitty weather. Thinking more on it, I have done VERY little flying in the US of A, all mine is Oceanic, transit, due regard, fighting typhoons across the pacific, and in and out of third world airports. Outside of some shit hot controRRers in Japan, I watch my own ass, when flying in some of their airspaces (they ARE out to kill you). Majority of which is non radar, and the controller doesn't have a clue where you are anyways, that is if he hasn't stepped out for a smoke break. I gotta say, overseas I have gotten some of the best in flight gouge from the comair bubbas, especially on weather or field conditions. Always good for a laugh on their part when they find out we are a P3...

 

[Tom]

Tom, Tom, Tom.... whens the last 1801 you filed? Talked to Mumbai lately? Hey, you started out strong with a good question, but man, take a step back with your newfound "knowledges" and put your crank back in your pants so it doesn't get stepped on. I'll ditto HAL's comment on "bullshit", get back to me with CRM when you have a couple in flight fires or lose an engine or two... and as already stated, A4s as always, used the system to HIS advantage, and looked good doing it (if you don't think STYLE and knowing your shit matters, then seek work elsewhere). Nothing wrong with it what he did, awesome one upsmanship on UAL, and it can be VERY frustrating on those routes getting cock blocked at a lower altitude because of some numb nuts. Heck, I have used the system too to MY ADVANTAGE with 5 planes repoing from one destination to another, and called block altitude above the plane ahead of me, and used higher power setting to climb faster and overtake them.... oh, the ranting on base freq, but we made it home before they did, and drank the beer while the 3P was out picking up more.

As for the new GPS toys.... YAWN... Tom, do you really think that the Navy is going to upgrade all our aircraft to that standard? Hell no, and not in the P3 community, I am still waiting for a the autopilot... Heck, our P3 GPS isn't certified, and routinely drops satellites in a turn. But you know what? I have two really really nice inertials, a NAV to plug and chug and back flight up on takeoffs and approaches into mins, and PAR/ILS capabilities to get back to the field through shitty weather. Thinking more on it, I have done VERY little flying in the US of A, all mine is Oceanic, transit, due regard, fighting typhoons across the pacific, and in and out of third world airports. Outside of some shit hot controRRers in Japan, I watch my own ass, when flying in some of their airspaces (they ARE out to kill you). Majority of which is non radar, and the controller doesn't have a clue where you are anyways, that is if he hasn't stepped out for a smoke break. I gotta say, overseas I have gotten some of the best in flight gouge from the comair bubbas, especially on weather or field conditions. Always good for a laugh on their part when they find out we are a P3...

I'm not a fan of smiley’s and my sarcasms didn't translate. From prior experience I've learned it is pointless to attempt to defend myself to this crowd. I thought this thread would die and end of story, but alas, I will attempt to explain.

I have no idea what an 1801 is. I have never heard of Mumbai. My remark regarding CRM was a joke. Not a very good one, but an attempt at it. I was envisioning a civilian FO shitting his pants over some badass flying, not A4's committing some wrong. I was not second guessing his action or attempting to lecture him. Watch this, trust me, etc., are famous last words and I thought it made the story more humorous.

As for the GPS in Navy aircraft, the question was valid. The environment I have experienced is going GPS-dependent and was curious how GPS was playing into military flying. I know that P-3's are old, but with the future of the P-8 I thought newer technology might be utilized. Hence, RNP.

I take responsibility for the miscommunication. I apologize and appreciate the input I have received regarding my original questions. I love the stories of experiences flying in the military. I recognize my experience and the lack there of, but I also realize I am from a different background. In the future, I will try to be more “delicate” with my inferences.

Tom