Intrusive Leadership vs Lawful Order

[VarmintShooter]

Wow. Had a whole rant typed out, but when I re-read it it just sounded preachy.

Anyway, two questions ...

This stuff doesn't extend to the RAG does it?

When did the Navy get this way?
(Spent six days and nights in Thailand as a junior E and could do more than I can now in our own country as an O)


EOD ... you seriously went to base legal to ask if it was a legal order? Wow.

Have a great weekend guys ... be safe!!

 

[TurnandBurn55]

One of the 'new' CNATRA policies is that if you go out drinking, you have to have a DD. Apparently the interpretation to this is that taking a taxi is not a valid solution.
In fact, a recent incident at NASC (which I won't post specifics on the open board... but IM me if you haven't heard) seems to confirm that drinking and taking a taxi can and will get you removed from training.

Obviously there were other circumstances which brought this to the powers-that-be's attention. But go figure...

 

[nateb]

Liberty is a privilege, not a right.

Why is it addressed in the U.S. Navy Regulations, Chapter 11, Section 5. Rights and Restrictions , Article 1157?

 

[GeoffStahl]

pick your battles... sometimes swimming with the current is not so bad. There will be tons of things you want to fight for in your career, thinking about and writing down what you are doing on leave/liberty would not seem to be in that category to me.

my two cents.

 

[Gatordev]

Why is it addressed in the U.S. Navy Regulations, Chapter 11, Section 5. Rights and Restrictions , Article 1157?

Oh for crying out loud people, quit sea-lawyering this. Your liberty can be secured ie you can't get off the boat or go home until someone says it's okay. Also you can't just go on liberty for as long as you want. Hell it takes an O-5 to let you go for 96 hours (give or take).

Leave is a right that's granted to you every month. You earn leave just like you earn and have a right to your paycheck. A leave request may be denied, but you still have the right to leave.

@Brett:

I'm surprised you're not feeling this yet, but I would guess that's it's coming. Maybe not immediately, but eventually. I'm not naive enough to say that all communities in the fleet are as carefree and easygoing as my community [/sarcasm], but I know others are getting similar treatment. It sounds like CNTRA's stance is more stringent, which makes sense, since it's a training command.

@EOD:

I can't say what one skipper will do compared to another, but generally if you do what you were asking (re: beach), it's not a bad thing. The ORM sheet is an initial assesment, not something to hang over your head. You didn't lie by not putting the beach on the sheet.

And everyone knows why all these policies are in place at various commands, right? It's part of of the 50% mishap reduction plan. That's why there are all these sweeping changes. Now whether you agree with the policies is a WHOLE other topic, and one that probably shouldn't even be discussed on a public forum, but instead in a JO office or in the readyroom/wardroom.

 

[phrogdriver]

If this is CNATRA-wide, then I left that IP gig at just the right time, flight time or not. This is as wrong as two boys f---ing. Liberty is a privilege, blase, blase...but please, this is the military, not a g.d. sewing circle. I can see jetskis, motorcycles, mountain bikes, and hashing falling to the ORM gods next.

Hammer the people who actually do stupid crap and make an example of them, not encumber the rest of us with rules that don't protect anyone, but do provide CYA for the brass. "Well, he signed a chit that said he wouldn't do anything dumb." If you don't have a real idea, come up with a directive.

If you want better liberty behavior, go back to WWII rules and have everyone wear a uniform on libbo and have a real shore patrol. THAT would be oppressive, but actually get real results.

 

[KBayDog]

I can see...hashing falling to the ORM gods next.

No. NO. I will resign.

 

[Flash]

until someone gets in trouble for being seen drunk and gets thrown out of flight school.

I am sorry but what a pathetic friggin joke. If they did this on any liberty overseas, det site where you could drink, any admin a squadron ever has or Tailhook they wouldn't have any sailors left in the Navy. I have served with guys who were boderline alkies but only saw them get punished for doing somehting really stupid, like drive a Humvee through the lobby of a BEQ (the guy tried to drive up the stairs). If they did that when I went through flight school 85% of my fellow students, and I, would have never gotten our wings. I joined the Navy to serve my country, not be babysat by a bunch of hypocritical nannies. Most of our seniors were hellraisers when they were our age.

Don't get me wrong, if you are stupid and screw up then I don't have a lot of sympathy. We had several DUI's and fights in my squadron that resulted in guys getting seperated. Good riddance. But turning in a friggin ORM sheet if I sit home and play with myself all weekend? Maybe this is something to have a little fun with. Give them a complete schedule "0326-Evacuate bowels, Risk-Pissing on self, Reducing the Risk-Shake".

 

[BigWorm]

And to think I joined the Marines because of that rock climbing commercial – talk about false advertising!

Commercial

 

[ben4prez]

From a completely legalistic standpoint, I see nothing technically "wrong" in the sense of "unlawful" with the things CNATRA has put out. We are part of the military, and thus have obligations to obey out superiors and sometimes have to suck it up, etc, etc

My strong objection is from a rather broad-based, strategic, "what type of officer are we cultivating by this oversight" view. I worry that the new paradigm in Naval Aviation is safety at the expense of mission effectiveness. Getting a superiors permission instead of exercising individual initiative to make things happen. And while I trust many naval officers to be discerning individuals, I also see an organizational culture overly obsessed with meeting mishap reduction rate numbers as one that views risk-takers as undesirable.

Lest we forget, we are in a war against a foe that we do not only not fundamentally understand, but has the ability to adapt quickly to overcome our technological prowess by cheap and readily available means. The most effective way to combat such an adaptable enemy is by being equally nimble. This requires creative leaders who are willing to buck by-the-book solutions for those that are actually effective. I bet all you marines know platoon and company commanders in Iraq who have successfully completed a mission by discovering new and innovative ways to defeat their enemy.

I look at the greatest military leaders and philosophers of history, and find one overriding theme: initiative and risk-taking.
Lord Nelson - The master of delegation, trusting his captains to use individual initiative and thier own decision making capabilities to carry out the intent of his orders, not concerned with how they did it. Even though he died at Trafalger, his captains knew what they had to do, and utterly crushed the French. That's leadership.

General Grant - One of the first generals to realize the futility of early-1800s mass tactics with the advent of new weapons.

Sun Tzu - The king of deception, knowledge, delegation and fluidity

Patton - outlandish risk-taker with amazing results

The German Bliztkreig, Attilla the Hun, Mongols- All took great risks to challenge entrenched powers using quick, unanticipated tactics.

General Napoleon (not the Emperor - strategically not the same person) - realized the effectiveness of mass tactics and rapid advancement.

Col. John Boyd - Architect of the First Gulf War "left hook" and USMC feignt to the East which would have been even more spectacularily successful had the Army general in charge of the "left hook" not stopped prematurely, due to his entrenched doctrinal beliefs, allowing the republican guard to escape the pincers. Father of all air tactical doctrine (E-M, Thrust/Power, OODA loop) -

John Thatch - developer of the Thatch weave that successfully allowed the inferior Wildcat fighter to defeat the Japanese Zero.

LtGen James Mattis - modern day patton
Rat-catchers, all of them. These are the types of men who win wars. Those that have held back the development of tactics are those who are more traditional. THe vastly superior British should have destroyed the Germans in the battle of Jutland, but instead nearly lost because they were so locked into command and control that relied on signals from their flagship. They had no initiative, for fear of "breaking the line" and the professional repercussions, that when their flagship misinterpreted the situation, all the captains blindly followed, to great loss of life.

We as a country must focus on developing leaders who are willing to take risks and make mistakes sometimes. This is not to say that being stupid is ever helpful, but that some of the greatest lessons come from trying new things and improving on their observed deficiencies. By living in a constant state of fear from "doing something wrong" and being attrited, the naval aviatiors we are training for tomorrow are being imbued in a culture of risk-minimization that could ultimately lead to combat ineffectiveness.

I've heard the mantra that these are the things "we just have to put up with" to become Naval aviators. And put up with them we shall, for we have committed to following the orders of our superiors. But as officers we also have a duty to scrutinize and make judgements. If we see something unwise, we should have the courage to speak up, using the proper chain of command and routing procedures to rectify a wrong while still carrying out the original orders.

In my mind, whenever "intrusive leadership" is necessary, it may be more symbolic of the work that needs to be done by the leaders initiating such directives than a reflection of the percieved deficiencies of subordinates.

 

[Brett327]

To distill down what the last post mentioned - Mission effectiveness isn't suffering because of safety. Safety is and should be the overriding concern in a TRAINING environment. Trust me, your meddle as an officer and a warrior is not being formed while you're in the TRACOM - that comes later. During actual operational evolutions is where safety usually takes a back seat to mission accomplishment. Although it's not a licence to be reckless, we all know what "Government Time" means. THAT is where warriors are made. Try to keep things in perspective.

Good times,

Brett

 

[BigWorm]

Well here is a what if:
What if I report to my superiors that I am staying home with the family. Then on Sunday morning my kids say dad lets drive down to the beach and go swimming. Can I go if I cant inform someone of the change? If I do go, and then get hurt, will I face charges for doing something other than what I said I was going to do?

Not that it matters to me now, but another reason why I declined the SGLI, and have Navy Mutual Aid life insurance. That would kind of suck if you don't ORM, going to the beach with the kids, something happens, they find you out of the line of duty, etc...

As I understand, Navy Mutual Aid offers the same type of plans cheaper, and whether or not you were in the line of duty doesn't matter. Anybody with more experience know anything about that?

 

[skidkid]

Problem with Navy Mutual aid is if you die as the crewmember in a military aircraft they cut your benefit in half (read the policy) most insurance companies do this, they will tell you that youre more likely to die in a car accident but they dont cut benes in half for that

 

[webmaster]

if I sit home and play with myself all weekend?

Nice to know you have your priorities straight, make sure you use the wool sock on cruise... :icon_wink

I find this whole topic depressing (not what Flash does on the weekends, I EXPECT that from prowler NFOs). While I realize the inherent differences between a Training command environment and Fleet/Operational, it seems that someone has let the crazied ORM/Intrusive Leadership monkey out of his box.

Let's look at two things:

ORM: Risk and safety management tool, excellent to step through dangerous evolutions and increase safety.

INTRUSIVE LEADERSHIP: Coining a catch phrase to what good Officers, CPOs and LPOs should do, ie "know what is going on your peers and subordinates professional and personnel lives, to help them realize their full potential"... but does this mean that I need to know that PO2 Schmukatelli is sitting at home playing LIFE from Milton Bradley with his Mrs. Schmukatelli, little jimmy and sally this week end? Heck no! Do we as leaders need to know that PO2 is having a hard time making his bills/advancement, or on the flip side is tearing up the squadron/ship qualification program? Most assuredly yes.

Problem is, when both of these get taken too far, and are used as lip service to cover an organization's collective behind, when PO2 does go water skiing and gets injured. Why is the focus now on "PO2, why didn't you ORM this?", when it should be "what does PO2 and his family need, and what can we do to help?".

I agree fully with some of the previous statements, someone screw's up, hammer 'em/counsel them, whatever, but do not hold the rest of the organization hostage to the lowest common denominator. Unfortunately, it appears that this is not the Navy I am in right now.

 

[Brett327]

I find this whole topic depressing (not what Flash does on the weekends, I EXPECT that from prowler NFOs).

Hey - I resemble that remark!

Brett