JAG/Mishap investigations

[exhelodrvr]

Based on some of the comments on the 2 threads on the F-18 mishap, I thought it might be worthwhile having a thread discussing, generically, what happens after a mishap. I've been out for 12 years, so things may have changed, so I'll just start it off pretty basically.

There are going to be two investigations, the JAG and the mishap investigation. The JAG will focus on very strict "legalese," along the lines of verifying that there was or wasn't gross dereliction of duty. The officer doing the JAG isn't supposed to include opinions on the cause of the mishap. These are "releasable" to some degree. An "office-mate" of mine received a significant chewing out when doing a JAG investigation on a mishap involving three aircrew fatalities (no survivors) when he included his opinion that it was caused by crew error.

The mishap investigation will go into specific causes, including the opinions of the investigators if there isn't incontrovertible proof of something. These are NOT supposed to be released publically; every once in awhile one does get leaked or accidentally released, and there is hell to pay. (All kinds of potential legal ramifications, emotional problems for the families, etc.)

 

[usmarinemike]

My impression was that the investigating officer was supposed to include a section in his command investigation specifically for opinions. Is this not true for Class A/fatality accidents?

Also, the JAG investigation is put together by the unit. Who is the convening authority for the mishap investigation?

 

[Schnugg]

Opinions based on findings of fact are okay in a JAG.

I did the JAG for the Nov 4th smash up derby in the Stennis flight deck three days before cruise on Nov 4, 2001. A Tomcat broke free of a tow bar when the boat took some bizarre rogue rolls in the middle of the night. Smashed up two tomcats and a hornet.

Took a full 30 days to complete and lots (lots) of interviews/legwork. Guess how I spent my first month of cruise.


Nothing like a phone call at 0130 telling you the Big XO wants to see you onthe flight deck....Right Now!!!


Walk up there on the roof..step over broken AIM-9M seeker head glass and aircraft parts and have the XO look up at me and say "You've got the JAG, get started."

 

[Rubiks06]

I may be mistaken but i dont believe it is required that the unit do the JAGman investigation. When the Blues had their mishap they pulled our PXO in to do the investigation.

 

[Schnugg]

My JAG investigation involved VF and VFA and I was ship's company.

 

[Catmando]

With my Class A/fatality, we squadron guys did the Mishap Investigation and the Airwing did the JAG investigation.

These two links are germane............

MIR: http://www.tpub.com/content/administration/14167/css/14167_136.htm

JAG: http://www.tpub.com/content/administration/14167/css/14167_59.htm

 

[SteveG75]

JAGMAN's are generally required for Class A FM (Flight mishaps) or where there is loss of life. The ISIC will generally make the call and appoint the investigating officer.

The MIR will usually be done by the mishap squadron ASO (unless he was involved) plus usually one member will be from outside the command. Anything that the mishap investigation finds does not have to be shared with JAG if it comes from interviews. Facts like logbooks, etc, can be shared.

The concept of privilege got weaker following the release of the Hultgreen MIR back aound 1995. Basically, privilege now only applies to the finding of fact that come from interviews as well as the AMB's conclusions.

ASO graduate, 2002, so it may have changed a bit in the last six years.

 

[HeyJoe]

Should mention JAG is after a determination of whether it was "In the Line of Duty" and any "Misconduct" was involved. This isn't just for any legal action of a punitive nature, it also can affect whether medical or disability costs are not allowed. JAG ends up being pretty much a one-person show and findings of fact can be shared with MIR folks (PLAT tape, measurements, quals, etc.). Mishap Investigation involves a team and they deliberate on potential causes and remedies with objective of adverting repetition. JAG Investigation can recommend things like revision of procedures or find they weren't followed. Report is released only after working its way to the top of the food chain and by the folks in Alexandria that TV show is trying to emulate. In cause of loss of property or life, you can bet reporters and ambulance chasers are waiting for release of JAG Investigation. MIR still has privileged portions to allow Board freedom to speculate and interviewees freedom to reveal things without fear of retribution. Even though the Hulgreen Mishap resulted in inappropriate release of MIR, the legal stature of privilege could be challenged if courts find squadrons or individuals are not safeguarding MIRs properly. Press and lawyers would have a field day if that happened.

 

[A4sForever]

Some enterprising soul needs to put up a "lexicon" or "dictionary" for the unwashed to follow ... i.e., AMB, MIR, MIRE, Class A, JAG, ASO, Big XO, etc., etc. .... all the usual suspects.

I'd do it ... but I'm old ... and I'm certain some things have changed since my last participation ... :sleep_125

 

[m0tbaillie]

Some enterprising soul needs to put up a "lexicon" or "dictionary" for the unwashed to follow ... i.e., AMB, MIR, MIRE, Class A, JAG, ASO, Big XO, etc., etc. .... all the usual suspects.

I'd do it ... but I'm old ... and I'm certain some things have changed since my last participation ... :sleep_125

http://www.militarywords.com/ <-- great site.

 

[stalk]

I'm bringing up the point just because we now have joint commands with SNAs and NAs flying Air Force aircraft. The USAF handles mishaps investigations and the concept of privilege much differently than the Navy. I was involved in a USAF investigation during Desert Shield and was surprised at the reluctance by witnesses to give information due to the belief it would somehow affect their career. Perhaps some of our '"Blue Suited" bubbas could provide some more insight into their Safety/Mishap system.

 

[phrogpilot73]

AMB, MIR, MIRE, Class A, JAG, ASO, Big XO

AMB = Aviation Mishap Board
MIR = Mishap Incident Report
MIRE = ? (Will I learn about that in ASO school in Jan?)
Class A = Mishap >$1M, total loss of A/C, loss of life, permanent total disability
JAG = A great TV show. Or Judge Advocate General.
ASO = Aviaton Safety Officer
Big XO = an executive officer who needs to lay off midrats.

 

[Pags]

It's no longer an MIR, it's now an SIR...for Safety Investigation Report.

There's all sorts of minutia to get into as to who runs the boards, and a lot of that depends on the severity of the mishap and who was involved.

Following a mishap there are 3 boards that can be going on. The first is the Aircraft Mishap Board. Their overall duty is to determine cause to prevent re-occurence. Because of this more "noble" goal, they get privileged status. This means that what is said to the AMB is only used in the safety investigation and is in no way shared with the JAGMAN. The second is the JAGMAN. They're going to determine line of conduct like HeyJoe mentioned. The third is the FNAEB (something else for USMC) which is mandatory following certain mishaps (I want to say A or B, but I'm a tad rusty). This board will determine fitness of the aviator in question to continue flying.

Squadrons have a standing AMB or Aviation Mishap Board that's composed of senior folks and is chaired by the XO. Squadrons also usually have an alternate AMB in the event that something happens to one of the primary members (they were involved in the mishap, etc). Sometimes the AMB will be chaired by another XO or CO (i want to say if it was a Class A).

For those of you who are safety types or just have far too much spare time, you can always read the OPNAV 3750.6R, which governs Aviation Safety Programs and tells you how to write an SIR and a HAZREP (so you can do it at home!).

 

[C420sailor]

Now, let's say civilian property damage/personal injury/death occurs as a result of a mishap. Could the results of the JAG investigation be used as part of a lawsuit? Could the civilians even sue the government or aviator/maintenance personnel in such a case?

Please forgive my ignorance---I know nothing about law.

 

[phrogpilot73]

Could the results of the JAG investigation be used as part of a lawsuit? Could the civilians even sue the government or aviator/maintenance personnel in such a case?

Yes, and yes. Of course to win - they'd have to show gross negligence on the part of the government/aviator/maintainers...