JAG/Mishap investigations

[Recovering LSO]

Since the JAGMAN did not go into the Human Factors that were involved, the CO was relieved due to the findings of the AMB. NOTE: The AMB did NOT recommend the CO be relieved, he was relieved for the mishap and the issues that were uncovered during the AMB.

And it shouldn't have. That is so far beyond the scope of an SIR that it would have only served to to reduce the credibility of the report had it been included. Sounded like the senior member handled it properly.

As someone who has sat on both sides of the green table and been involved in both sides of an AMB, I can 100% assure you that the bottom liner on your fnaeb (usually the Air Boss at NZY) has read the SIR by the time you get there for your interview or VTC. This can actually play into your court as well. The fnaeb is interested in getting in, out and over with as quickly as possible. There may EIs (engineering investigations) that are outstanding still. The conclusions of the fnaeb may be based on incomplete information. If, hypothetically, an EI comes back after the fnaeb is finished and proves the existence of a mechanical failure - you could end up with two reports with very different tones. You'd sure like if "the man" knew about the EI report via the SIR before reading the fnaeb package (which was completed prior to the release of both the EI and SIR). Clear as mud?

Bottom line - yes, there is a right way and a wrong way WRT the order that these reports should be released, but before getting too indignant, realize that sometimes the "wrong way" is going to benefit you.....

 

[CommodoreMid]

Is the reverse true? What would happen, say, if a pilot got a favorable finding from a FNAEB, but subsequent engineering investigations indicate that it was pilot error? Does the process have a double jeopardy or something for the pilot, or can a review be revisited?

 

[Recovering LSO]

Its all situationally dependent. The point of my post was to say that while none of the reports "should" influence the others - to think that they dont is a bit naive. Can it work both ways - sure.

 

[WiscoMarine]

No. The portions containing priviledged info are only released to you if you have a need-to-know. They shouldn't even be posted on Squadron Message Boards unless they are tightly controlled. Priviledged info is immune from a FOIA request. If you have a valid request, you send it to the Safety Center for ajudication.

I understand that the MIR is priviledged and need-to-know, but the JAG investigation isn't, and it has to be completed within 30 days.

So I guess I have two questions now:

1) Where can I find the JAG investigation release for recent incidents
2) If it isn't readily available... WHY TF NOT!?

I'm asking this question because (and call me crazy here) I want to LEARN FROM A REPUTABLE SOURCE WHAT HAPPENED IN RECENT AVIATION INCIDENTS. So I can (and again, crazy) learn what happened so I don't make the same mistake. In a two week period we had a mishap in EVERY LEVEL of Marine Corps rotary wing aviation:

-T-34 crash in Corpus
-TH-57 crash at Whiting
-AH-1 crash doing workups
-AH-1/Huey crash in country
(So i guess the FRS was left out)

And here my friends and I are in Primary trying to figure out WTF happened, and all our speculation does is cause rumor mills.

I'm I losing it here?

Sorry for venting, I just don't understand how we aren't doing a better job of trying to learn from our mistakes here.

 

[HokiePilot]

I understand that the MIR is priviledged and need-to-know, but the JAG investigation isn't, and it has to be completed within 30 days.

So I guess I have two questions now:

1) Where can I find the JAG investigation release for recent incidents
2) If it isn't readily available... WHY TF NOT!?

I'm asking this question because (and call me crazy here) I want to LEARN FROM A REPUTABLE SOURCE WHAT HAPPENED IN RECENT AVIATION INCIDENTS. So I can (and again, crazy) learn what happened so I don't make the same mistake. In a two week period we had a mishap in EVERY LEVEL of Marine Corps rotary wing aviation:

-T-34 crash in Corpus
-TH-57 crash at Whiting
-AH-1 crash doing workups
-AH-1/Huey crash in country
(So i guess the FRS was left out)

And here my friends and I are in Primary trying to figure out WTF happened, and all our speculation does is cause rumor mills.

I'm I losing it here?

Sorry for venting, I just don't understand how we aren't doing a better job of trying to learn from our mistakes here.

Talk to the safety officer in your squadron. He will be able to show you the SIRs. If you want to see the JAGMANs, submit a FOIA request.

 

[HeyJoe]

So I guess I have two questions now:

1) Where can I find the JAG investigation release for recent incidents
2) If it isn't readily available... WHY TF NOT!?

You're slipping into a self-centric mode here. Besides, you'd be woefully disappointing I the legalese jargon in a JAG. Basically, it's "Findings of Fact" (like Mishap pilot had a current flight physical) laid out in a list with a determination of whether Mishap occured "In the Line of Duty and not due to own misconduct". It's not going to give you profound insight into what happened in aviation-speak. I wouldn't even recommend trying to find it for your purposes.

If you really want insights, start with your Safety Officer and get in contact with the Safety Center Analyst or Branch Head for type aircraft you are concerned about and ask your questions. There is always a lot more in the backstory anyway.

I'm asking this question because (and call me crazy here) I want to LEARN FROM A REPUTABLE SOURCE WHAT HAPPENED IN RECENT AVIATION INCIDENTS. So I can (and again, crazy) learn what happened so I don't make the same mistake. In a two week period we had a mishap in EVERY LEVEL of Marine Corps rotary wing aviation:

-T-34 crash in Corpus
-TH-57 crash at Whiting
-AH-1 crash doing workups
-AH-1/Huey crash in country
(So i guess the FRS was left out)

And here my friends and I are in Primary trying to figure out WTF happened, and all our speculation does is cause rumor mills.

I'm I losing it here?

Sorry for venting, I just don't understand how we aren't doing a better job of trying to learn from our mistakes here.

Lessons learned aren't instantaneous. You seem to want things that likely aren't even known yet. It's also incumbant on your Safety Officer to be passing out this type info. Engage him or her and ask the questions. Make the system work for you. You're a flight student with a full plate. Why waste time trying to seek info that may not even be accessible to you when others are charged with processing it for you?

 

[HeyJoe]

So after all of these reports have been finalized, are they available online for public view? Sort of like a "center for lessons learned" kind of thing? I don't really want to have to request information through the FOIA, so how do we look up old investigation data?

The ntsb.gov site doesn't seem to include military mishaps, especially ones outside of CONUS.

I understand that the MIR is priviledged and need-to-know, but the JAG investigation isn't, and it has to be completed within 30 days.

So I guess I have two questions now:

1) Where can I find the JAG investigation release for recent incidents
2) If it isn't readily available... WHY TF NOT!?

I'm asking this question because (and call me crazy here) I want to LEARN FROM A REPUTABLE SOURCE WHAT HAPPENED IN RECENT AVIATION INCIDENTS. So I can (and again, crazy) learn what happened so I don't make the same mistake.
And here my friends and I are in Primary trying to figure out WTF happened, and all our speculation does is cause rumor mills.

I'm I losing it here?

Sorry for venting, I just don't understand how we aren't doing a better job of trying to learn from our mistakes here.

So, are you two close friends?

 

[WiscoMarine]

You're slipping into a self-centric mode here. Besides, you'd be woefully disappointing I the legalese jargon in a JAG. Basically, it's "Findings of Fact" ......
..... There is always a lot more in the backstory anyway.

Please forgive me for sounding bitter and selfish about that, I just have close friends that had personal interests in some of the recent incidents. They were close enough to attend funerals, but not so close as to be "in the loop" as far as what happened. It's very frustrating watching them not have answers and try to piece together what went wrong. Those unanswered questions leave a certain empty feeling that I can't understand. I feel that if a report or press release was issued explaining the situation, some of us could get a little better closure on the personal side these unfortunate happenings.

You're a flight student with a full plate. Why waste time trying to seek info that may not even be accessible to you when others are charged with processing it for you?

DON Policy-wise, if there are others charged with processing it for me, and I'm encouraged to seek out the safety officer and learn this information, why can't we just publish them online? Is it a matter of information security? If so, couldn't we put it on NKO or MarineNet? I'm pretty sure that MCCLL is only available on secure networks, so it is possible. I feel that all aviators would find a resource like that invaluable to have at their fingertips. What happens if at a squadron your safety officer's plate is full, or he's detached or on leave or something? I'm not by any means saying that's the case where I am, but what if it were in the future?

Again, please excuse my passion with this subject.

 

[WiscoMarine]

So, are you two close friends?

Sorry about that, I have tried changing the username or deleting the old account and wasn't able to. Could an administrator please help?

 

[Pags]

DON Policy-wise, if there are others charged with processing it for me, and I'm encouraged to seek out the safety officer and learn this information, why can't we just publish them online? Is it a matter of information security? If so, couldn't we put it on NKO or MarineNet? I'm pretty sure that MCCLL is only available on secure networks, so it is possible. I feel that all aviators would find a resource like that invaluable to have at their fingertips. What happens if at a squadron your safety officer's plate is full, or he's detached or on leave or something? I'm not by any means saying that's the case where I am, but what if it were in the future?

Again, please excuse my passion with this subject.

The meat of a mishap report is privileged. This privileged status is what allows Mishap Reports to "get to the bottom" a mishap. Access to them is controlled to prevent them from getting to the general public. If everyone had access to them, it'd only be a matter of time before a report is leaked to the media or someone's family. It's been said before, and I'll say it again: ASK YOUR SAFETY OFFICER. The SO's plate shouldn't be too full to get your a mishap report since that's a key portion of his job. If he's on leave, he'll be back and you'll just have to be patient.

Unfortunately, a mishap report is not always going to give you all the answers.

 

[squeeze]

So you want to read privileged reports to get the info so you can tell people who don't have access to such reports? Eh?

 

[phrogpilot73]

Dude, focus on primary.

Per the OPNAV 3750.6R, an ASO shall not be tasked with anything outside of aviation safety. His plate won't be full.

Your instructors know what you need to be focusing on now, and they will brief the SIRs when appropriate. For what it's worth, I haven't seen an SIR for all but two of the mishaps you listed.

Also, if you're in Primary - how in the hell are you going to understand/learn lessons from a TH-57 mishap when you don't know anything about the systems/flight performance characteristics??

When you get to the fleet, you'll have more access to the SIRs than you do now - and that's by design.

 

[MIDNJAC]

FWIW when I was in primary, we got an in depth review of the previous (Whiting) T-34 mishap. That was some 6 months or so after the mishap itself. Like phrog said, they gave us all the pertinent info from the investigation (ie lessons learned) once all the facts were determined. Same thing has happened in my experience in T-45 land (timeframe wise). Did it make any difference in my daily flying not knowing up until then? Not at all. I spent (most) flights then and now doing my best to not kill myself and do the right thing (procedurally). That didn't change in light of a mishap report. Squeeze has a valid point, if that is your intent.