Leaving Vietnam vs AFG

[Griz882]

No. If you are in the seat, wearing the pin (CAS - Navy) you uphold and support the mission, the CoC. If you are so adamantly opposed to the policies of your superiors, then resign, move on, and THEN speak your mind. The greatest aspect of our military is the respect and support we give to our CoC up to, and including, our CINC.

I understand what you are saying and I don't claim to be taking any moral high ground here, but a "former lieutanant colonel" gets about as much traction as a "former colege student." Don't forget we (as in the naval "we") had an event like this in our past called it the "Revolt of the Admirals" and it saved carrier aviation. Those men used their positions (and lost them) to do what they thought was right.

 

[Griz882]

I understand what you are saying and I don't claim to be taking any moral high ground here, but a "former lieutanant colonel" gets about as much traction as a "former colege student." Don't forget we (as in the naval "we") had an event like this in our past called it the "Revolt of the Admirals" and it saved carrier aviation. Those men used their positions (and lost them) to do what they thought was right.

Above I should have written “helped save carrier aviation…” because Korea had something to do with that as well.

 

[Hair Warrior]

Above I should have written “helped save carrier aviation…” because Korea had something to do with that as well.

The DoD has a poor track record on this stuff. We had to rebuild the scout sniper expertise basically from scratch in WWI, WWII, Korea, and Vietnam. Carlos Hathcock’s biography said they had to pretty much learn it from scratch in the 1960s, that a lot had been lost.

 

[robav8r]

The DoD has a poor track record on this stuff. We had to rebuild the scout sniper expertise basically from scratch in WWI, WWII, Korea, and Vietnam. Carlos Hathcock’s biography said they had to pretty much learn it from scratch in the 1960s, that a lot had been lost.

Slight threadjack . . . . . DoD has a poor track record on lots of things that seem to be getting worse and worse. I do NC3 critical infrastructure assessments for DTRA and the DoD CIO, this article is a good example of what our teams face every time we go out and look at "things" that are supposed to be in better material condition than they really are . . . .

 

[number9]

We've been hearing this for 15 years. Nobody will capitalize on Afghanistan's alleged supply of natural resources until there's a stable security situation so that the requisite infrastructure can be built. Call me in 20 years to see where we're at.

In a prior life I lived and worked in Francophone West Africa. Guinea has fully one-third of the world's bauxite reserves and, up until a few years ago, was not a significant producer of aluminum. Guinea also has the advantages of being a relatively small country and on the coast. Despite that, it languished for decades under a cloud of coups, authoritarian rule and internal strife...

Good luck to anyone hoping to swoop in and quickly develop natural resources in Afghanistan without a stable government and a security situation to go along with it.

 

[Griz882]

According to the Washington Post the last military flight is out...of interest...

"McKenzie said the military brought some equipment out and “demilitarized” other pieces, a term that often means detonating in place. Among the equipment left behind was 70 mine-resistant vehicles, 27 Humvees and 73 aircraft, none of which is usable now, he said."

I have a feeling most of those 73 aircraft were -60's and -47's.

 

[Griz882]

According to the Washington Post the last military flight is out...of interest...

"McKenzie said the military brought some equipment out and “demilitarized” other pieces, a term that often means detonating in place. Among the equipment left behind was 70 mine-resistant vehicles, 27 Humvees and 73 aircraft, none of which is usable now, he said."

I have a feeling most of those 73 aircraft were -60's and -47's.

Additional sad news for @ChuckMK23 and @phrogdriver...

"The U.S. State Department has confirmed that seven CH-46E Sea Knight helicopters, also colloquially known as "Phrogs," belonging to its Air Wing have been rendered inoperable and abandoned in Afghanistan as part of the ongoing evacuation effort."

 

[picklesuit]

Boy, I’m just glad the President kept his promise and we got all the Americans out before we left…man of his word…I’d hate to think he was on a manufactured timeline or felt rushed…

 

[Jim123]

It's sad but we also left equipment behind in Vietnam (different timeline, but...).


On a related note, the Taliban raising the flag propaganda pic from last week made a lot of people pretty mad. That's one of the things propaganda and information ops are supposed to do, but if they're going to go about imitating iconic American pictures, consider that our latest pictures are our troops, the ones who were killed by the suicide bomber last week, taking care of babies. Our people in those pictures have varying skin tones and their physical features and ancestry vary, yet they all got along and worked together towards a greater good. Yes, the Taliban got in a few opportune pictures of their own and of course they'll get in a lot more in the future, yes, the war of ideas is far from over, and yes, we've got a lot of problems as a country right now.

But ponder for a moment the stories and values that our own pictures tell. The best the Taliban will ever be able to do with e pluribus unum is to mock it- but they'll never have anything of their own that is original or comparable.

 

[Treetop Flyer]

According to the Washington Post the last military flight is out...of interest...

"McKenzie said the military brought some equipment out and “demilitarized” other pieces, a term that often means detonating in place. Among the equipment left behind was 70 mine-resistant vehicles, 27 Humvees and 73 aircraft, none of which is usable now, he said."

I have a feeling most of those 73 aircraft were -60's and -47's.

They may have missed one

 

[Treetop Flyer]

Lots of Afghans sounding like Tony Montana

 

[picklesuit]

Looked like the dude harnessed underneath had a lot of trust in his TB pilot

 

[ABMD]

Looked like the dude harnessed underneath had a lot of trust in his TB pilot

Reports are this wasn't an execution and the guy is in a harness. Is that one our 60s or one we gave the ANA that the Taliban are now flying?

 

[RobLyman]

Additional sad news for @ChuckMK23 and @phrogdriver...

"The U.S. State Department has confirmed that seven CH-46E Sea Knight helicopters, also colloquially known as "Phrogs," belonging to its Air Wing have been rendered inoperable and abandoned in Afghanistan as part of the ongoing evacuation effort."

From two guys I know who were flying them up until the end:

#1 drive shaft removed and data plate removed. According to one of them, one of the aircraft had actually been used in Saigon as well.

 

[Wareal]

Open Letter from Retired Generals and Admirals
Regarding Afghanistan
The retired Flag Officers signing this letter are calling for the resignation and retirement of the Secretary of Defense (SECDEF) and the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff (CJCS) based on negligence in performing their duties primarily involving events surrounding the disastrous withdrawal from Afghanistan. The hasty retreat has left initial estimates at ~15,000 Americans stranded in dangerous areas controlled by a brutal enemy along with ~25,000 Afghan citizens who supported American forces.
What should have happened upon learning of the Commander in Chief’s (President Biden’s) plan to quickly withdraw our forces and close the important power projection base Bagram, without adequate plans and forces in place to conduct the entire operation in an orderly fashion?
As principal military advisors to the CINC/President, the SECDEF and CJCS should have recommended against this dangerous withdrawal in the strongest possible terms. If they did not do everything within their authority to stop the hasty withdrawal, they should resign. Conversely, if they did do everything within their ability to persuade the CINC/President to not hastily exit the country without ensuring the safety of our citizens and Afghans loyal to America, then they should have resigned in protest as a matter of conscience and public statement.
The consequences of this disaster are enormous and will reverberate for decades beginning with the safety of Americans and Afghans who are unable to move safely to evacuation points; therefore, being de facto hostages of the Taliban at this time. The death and torture of Afghans has already begun and will result in a human tragedy of major proportions. The loss of billions of dollars in advanced military equipment and supplies falling into the hands of our enemies is catastrophic. The damage to the reputation of the United States is indescribable. We are now seen, and will be seen for many years, as an unreliable partner in any multinational agreement or operation. Trust in the United States is irreparably damaged.
Moreover, now our adversaries are emboldened to move against America due to the weakness displayed in Afghanistan. China benefits the most followed by Russia, Pakistan, Iran, North Korea and others. Terrorists around the world are emboldened and able to pass freely into our country through our open border with Mexico.
Besides these military operational reasons for resignations, there are leadership, training, and morale reasons for resignations. In interviews, congressional testimony, and public statements it has become clear that top leaders in our military are placing mandatory emphasis on PC “wokeness” related training which is extremely divisive and harmful to unit cohesion, readiness, and war fighting capability. Our military exists to fight and win our Nation’s wars and that must be the sole focus of our top military leaders.
For these reasons we call on the SECDEF Austin and the CJCS General Milley to resign. A fundamental principle in the military is holding those in charge responsible and accountable for their actions or inactions. There must be accountability at all levels for this tragic and avoidable debacle.
Signed
RADM Philip Anselmo, USN, (ret)
MG Joe Arbuckle, USA (ret)
BG John C. Arick, USMC (ret)
BG Billy A. Barrett, USAF (ret)
RADM Jon Bayless, USN, (ret)
BG Charles Bishop, USAF (ret)
BG Don Bolduc, USA (ret)
MG William Bowdon, USMC (ret)
LTG William Boykin, USA (ret)
MG Edward Bracken, USAF (ret)
VADM Toney Michael Bucchi, USN (ret)
MG Bobby Butcher, USMC (ret)
BG Jim L. Cash, USAF (ret)
LTG James E. Chambers USAF (ret)
MG Carroll D. Childers, USA (ret)
RADm Arthur Clark, USN (ret)
VADM Ed Clexton, USN, (ret)
MG John J. Closner III, USAF, (ret)
BG Peter b. Collins, USMC (ret)
MG David L Commons USAF (ret)
MG James l. Dozier, USA (ret)
BG Keith B. Connolly USAF (ret)
BG Bob Floyd, USA (ret)
MG Larry Fortmer, USAF (ret)
BG Jerome V. Foust, USA (ret)
BG Jimmy E. Fowler, USA (ret)
BG Jerome V. Foust, USA (ret)
RADM J. Fraser, USN (ret)
MG John T. Furlow, USA (ret)
MG Francis C. Gideon, USAF (ret)
MG Lee V. Greer, USAF (ret)
BG John H. Grueser, USAF (ret)
MG Ken Hageman, USAF (ret)
Gen Alfred Hansen, USAF (ret)
MG Bryan G. Hawley, USAF (ret)
MG John W. Hawley, USAF (ret)
BG Norman Ham, USAF (ret)
RADM Donald Hickman, USN (ret)
MG William B. Hobgood, USA (ret)
MG Bob Hollingworth, USMC (ret)
MG Jerry D. Holmes, USAF (ret)
ADM. Jerome L. Johnson USN (ret)
RADM John King, USN (ret)
BG Douglas E. Lee, USA (ret)
MG J.S. Lynch, USMC (ret)
RADM(L) Grady L. Jackson USN (ret)
RADM Ronny Jackson USN (ret)
MG Anthony Kropp USA (ret)
RADM Chuck Kubic, CEC, USN (ret).
MG James E. Livingston, USMC, MOH (ret)
MG John D. Logeman, USAF (ret)
MG Jarvis D. Lynch, USMC (ret)
LTG Fred McCorkle, USMC (ret)
LTG Thomas McInerney, USAF (ret)
BG Michael P. McRaney, USAF (ret)
BG James M. Mead, USMC (ret)
BG Joe Mensching, USAF (ret)
MG John F. Miller, USAF (ret)
RADM John A. Moriarty, USN (ret)
RADM David R. Morris, USN (ret)
BG Ben Nelson, USAF (ret)
BG Joe Oder, USA, (ret)
MG Ray O’Mara, USAF (ret)
MG Joe S. Owens, USA (ret)
BG John a. Paterson, USAF (ret)
RADM Russ Penniman, USN (ret)
MG Richard Perraut, USAF (ret)
VADM John Poindexter, USN (ret)
RADM J.J. Quinn, USN (ret)
LTG Clifford H. Rees, USAF (ret)
BG Teddy E. Rinebarger, USAF (ret)
RADM Norman Saunders, USCG (ret)
LTG Hubert G. Smith, USA (ret)
MG James Stewart, USAF (ret)
RADM Jeremy D. Taylor, USN (ret)
LTG William Thurman, USAF (ret)
BG Robert Titus, USAF, (ret)
LTG Lansford E. Trapp Jr, USAF (ret)
BG Richard J. Valente, USA (ret)
MG Paul Vallely, USA (ret)
BG William L. Welch, USAF (ret)
MG Kenneth W. Weir, USMCR (ret)
MG Mike Wiedemer, USAF (ret)
MG Richard O. Wightman, Jr. USA (ret)
BG Robert E. Windham, USA (ret)
RADM Denny Wisely, USN. (ret)
BG Robert V. Woods, USAF (ret)