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Letter to Sen McCain RE CBRN use in Syria

Brett327

Brett327

Well-Known Member
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I don't disagree that Syria is going to be a big mess and that democracy there is extremely unlikely in the near and mid term, but I would offer up Turkey, Morocco and Indonesia as counterpoints to the notion that Islam and democracy are incompatible.
 
Fog

Fog

Old RIOs never die: They just can't fast-erect
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Morocco & Jordan are both benevolent monarchies where the king is the ultimate ruler. Both have been reliable allies to the US historically. Turkey was an exception in the Muslim world, but it has trended towards fundamentalist Islam during the past decade. They're in NATO, but religious freedom struggles there. Indonesia may ostensibly be a democracy, but hardly in fact. Freedom of religion exists officially there, but 88% of the population is Muslim. Please name a country other than Saudi Arabia that has converted to Islam by anything other than the point of the sword?
 
jmcquate

jmcquate

Well-Known Member
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OK........I'll poke the bear. Why is destabilization in Syria a bad thing? Syrians whacking Syrians is a win- win in my book. As long as they have to deal with this uprising they can’t screw with Lebanon or do Iran’s bidding regarding Israel.
 
Pugs

Pugs

Back from the range
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Brett327 said:
I don't disagree that Syria is going to be a big mess and that democracy there is extremely unlikely in the near and mid term, but I would offer up Turkey, Morocco and Indonesia as counterpoints to the notion that Islam and democracy are incompatible.
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The Turkey of Ataturk and the spirit of Kemalist that he founded is in serious jeopardy there. The military has always been a counterbalance to the radical side of Islam but as of late (the last decade or so) the radical side is winning and there have been mass arrests of senior military officers to ensure that the trend continues. Simple signs there like the green streetlights in Ankara and government employees being able to paint their office door green if they have completed the Hadj are the visible components of this trend but this a lot more going on out of site. We'll see where it goes but I am less than optimistic. History often repeats itself and the Arab spring has changed some things.
 
squeeze

squeeze

Retired Harrier Dude
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Fog said:
(a) Federal deficit spending, (b) foreign policy, (c) Benghazi, et al., you get the idea. Take a better shot, Marine. Race has nothing to do w/ where our nation is headed, and if you don't know that may Heaven help you.
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There you have it. Actual things to take issue with that can be substantiated by data. Bringing real issues up, valid. Ridiculous pundit talking points, not valid.

Seriously, "hubris and pomposity," pronoun usage, and what you're effectively labeling as 'arrogant' speech from a Columbia University grad turn Harvard Law grad turn Univ of Chicago professor who routinely addresses a Congress that opposes near 100% of everything he tries to accomplish. I can't imagine why he may seem cocky when he speaks.

I certainly don't agree with all of his policies, but I'd rather have a confident, well-spoken CinC than one with a fake accent who slaughters the English language at every turn. Somehow, the GOP and its ilk never had an issue with that manner of speech.
 
Fog

Fog

Old RIOs never die: They just can't fast-erect
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Contributor
. . . not to mention his extensive management experience in government and the private sector - oh, wait
 
phrogdriver

phrogdriver

More humble than you would understand
pilot
Super Moderator
You mean besides having been president for four years?

Beats someone who quit being governor after two.
 
Renegade One

Renegade One

Well-Known Member
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scoolbubba said:
There's literally no upside to getting involved with this….If Syrians want their freedom, they can earn it themselves. We don't have the blood or treasure worth spilling for another middle eastern country's reset.
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My thoughts exactly.
Fog said:
Agree w/ Bubba. Based on my reading of Islamic history, culture and the current world status, I do not believe anything resembling democracy & freedom can exist w/in Islam.
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Again, I agree…Brett's relevant examples notwithstanding…we'd just be wrestling with another pig…and you all know how that goes. There would be more blowback than congratulatory telegrams.

Hint: Never draw or articulate anything called a 'red line' if your burden of proof will guarantee that you never have to cross it. I'll go you one better: If no "US national Security Imperatives" are threatened, don't talk about "lines" at all.

It's a big world we live in…but not everything requires a US response. This really, really seems to beg the case for "Local Law Enforcement" in my book….European NATO members, neighboring states, anyone else who's close enough to feel the need to call out the "Neighborhood Watch".
 
phrogdriver

phrogdriver

More humble than you would understand
pilot
Super Moderator
I think the current president would be criticized either way. If he acts, he'll be criticized for intervening; if he doesn't, he's a wimp, 'cause "'Murica."

I wouldn't criticize any president for being stupid. You can't get that far without a little G2. I will criticize some for being wrong. Today's politics make me long for the days of GHWB and Bill Clinton, though.
 
scoolbubba

scoolbubba

Brett327 gargles ballsacks
pilot
Contributor
phrogdriver said:
I wouldn't criticize any president for being stupid. You can't get that far without a little G2. I will criticize some for being wrong. Today's politics make me long for the days of GHWB and Bill Clinton, though.
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Indeed. I never thought I'd look back fondly on the Slick Willy years, but when all we had to worry about was if our President was getting strange in the Oval office seems downright cheerful when compared to our current situation.
 
Spekkio

Spekkio

He bowls overhand.
The current animosity between the political parties is as old as representative government. We had a Civil War because Lincoln and Republican representatives were elected. While that Congress passed the 13th amendment, the modern one nationalized healthcare. FDR concocted a court packing scheme to get his policy passed and upheld. Nixon spied on his opponents. Gingrich had no love for slick Willy. Congressional debates are tame now compared to what they used to be back in the day.

Don't confuse times of prosperity with friendly politics.
 
scoolbubba

scoolbubba

Brett327 gargles ballsacks
pilot
Contributor
Spekkio said:
Don't confuse times of prosperity with friendly politics.
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Animosity did not equate to gridlock.

However, based on some of the administration's published wish lists, doing nothing is probably the best (ie least harmful) thing Congress can do 95% of the time.
 
Spekkio

Spekkio

He bowls overhand.
Yea but legislation often passed by bribery and other questionably legal means to overcome gridlock, and there are still plenty of examples of government gridlock throughout our history. It's a lot harder to "bargain" like that in the information age.

Our government was designed to be slow and often gridlock. It's what keeps relative stability through different political parties having a majority.
 
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