Life chasing subs just got more interesting!

[Flash]

Any chance the Navy would bring back non-nuclear subs? My knowledge of subs is limited to Das Boot, Operation Petticoat and Down Periscope....According to the article, AIP subs can stay down for up to 3 weeks... If you needed to increase fleet size but an all nuclear fleet is not affordable, is this a player as you could purchase 6-7 of these for the price of one nuke....

Probably not. Want a simple answer? Here is a good reason:

...German Type 212 submarines can stay under water without snorkeling for up to three weeks, traveling 1,500 miles (2,400 kilometers) or more....

That range and speed on AIP...sucks. That won't even get you from San Diego to Hawaii, or halfway from Hawaii to Guam.

There are a lot of advantages to nuke submarines because of their inherent flexibility in range, speed and endurance. Those countries that use nuke submarines tend to move more towards all nuke fleets eventually with France, the UK and the US already with all nuke sub fleets. Russia has some unique geographic challenges in the Black Sea and the Baltic where large nuke submarines would not be ideal due to the confined operating spaces so they still make them, it is an export cash cow for them too. China and India are too new and too inexperienced to the game to convert their fleets over to all nuke.

There might be a few scenarios where a diesel might be advantageous but they are too limited to justify the cost to design, build and maintain a whole new fleet of submarines for the US. So good on the Germans for making a nice piece of gear and making some dough out of it, but they don't need to worry about crossing the Pacific or Atlantic to fight with them.

 

[zippy]

Any chance the Navy would bring back non-nuclear subs? My knowledge of subs is limited to Das Boot, Operation Petticoat and Down Periscope....

http://thediplomat.com/2016/04/why-the-us-needs-conventional-submarines/

According to the article, AIP subs can stay down for up to 3 weeks... If you needed to increase fleet size but an all nuclear fleet is not affordable, is this a player as you could purchase 6-7 of these for the price of one nuke.

While previously conventional submarines had to snorkel roughly at least every two days of time under water to recharge their batteries, air-independent propulsion (AIP) has changed the game. German Type 212 submarines can stay under water without snorkeling for up to three weeks, traveling 1,500 miles (2,400 kilometers) or more. Without emitting heat and with no need for constant cooling due to the lack of a nuclear reactor, these German submarines and comparable designs are more than a match for nuclear-powered submarines in terms of stealthiness.

Here is the wikipedia page on they Type 212 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_212_submarine

Doubtful. Our submarine fleet likes to do that whole power projection/presence without detection thing. Our submarines can stay submerged for full deployments if they want (food limited). A diesel is eventually going to come up for air to recharge the batteries and when it does you have a way to find it, and kill it.

Historically, Chinese nuclear submarines were garbage. They've gotten a bit better but their diesel fleet is still better for what they wish to use it for (defending the island chains against US involvement when the time comes).

 

[CommodoreMid]

The article doesn't quite get how AIP technology works. While it is a game changer for diesel boats, overall it's not as simple as the author makes it out to be for them to operate. Fundamentally, we need SIPR AW to talk more about this.

 

[Gatordev]

The article doesn't quite get how AIP technology works. While it is a game changer for diesel boats, overall it's not as simple as the author makes it out to be for them to operate. Fundamentally, we need SIPR AW to talk more about this.

AIP has been around since before modern subs, so an easy way to get at what CM is saying without delving into SIPR is that historically, AIP is a one-time use device before needing servicing. That doesn't really fit with our way of doing business.

 

[azguy]

AIP has been around since before modern subs, so an easy way to get at what CM is saying without delving into SIPR is that historically, AIP is a one-time use device before needing servicing. That doesn't really fit with our way of doing business.

And, as others have noted... We value speeds that aren't achievable with a diesel power plant.

 

[red_stang65]

A civilian historian writing articles on sub tactics and procurement is the equivalent of a virgin writing a sex advice column.

And a civilian lawyer/historian writing about naval strategy without spending a day in the Navy is like...oh, yeah: Sir Julien Corbett. (emoticons to symbolize tongue-in-cheek tone of voice)

 

[MIDNJAC]

In the end it really doesn't matter because the day we start shooting Chinese subs is the day before the first nuclear war begins.

 

[Uncle Fester]

In the end it really doesn't matter because the day we start shooting Chinese subs is the day before the first nuclear war begins.

 

[Flash]

In the end it really doesn't matter because the day we start shooting Chinese subs is the day before the first nuclear war begins.

Eh, maybe. I could see the Chinese making a 'small' land grab for one of the offshore Taiwanese islands or a Philippine island in the Spratlys that we ended up getting sucked into.

 

[Randy Daytona]

I'm not saying we wouldn't get our hair mussed, but I do say no more than 10 to 20 million killed - tops - depending on the breeze.

 

[MIDNJAC]

Eh, maybe. I could see the Chinese making a 'small' land grab for one of the offshore Taiwanese islands or a Philippine island in the Spratlys that we ended up getting sucked into.

sucked in and sinking a capital ship (or sub as it were) are somewhat different in my mind, and one would be a lot more likely and a lot easier to de-escalate than the other. Of course nobody really knows for sure.

 

[Hair Warrior]

semi-threadjack/
On a related note to ASW and maritime patrol aircraft, has anyone here ever flown one of these puppies? If so, how good are they going to be in the air-sea domain? https://warisboring.com/the-pentago...-s-claims-in-the-south-china-sea-acc3ead472c0

 

[Spekkio]

Doubtful. Our submarine fleet likes to do that whole power projection/presence without detection thing. Our submarines can stay submerged for full deployments if they want (food limited). A diesel is eventually going to come up for air to recharge the batteries and when it does you have a way to find it, and kill it.

Historically, Chinese nuclear submarines were garbage. They've gotten a bit better but their diesel fleet is still better for what they wish to use it for (defending the island chains against US involvement when the time comes).

This. In a nutshell, SSKs and SSPs cannot meet our national security needs. If we find ourselves needing to do coastal defense with those platforms, which is pretty much all they can do, then we are already in a world of hurt.

 

[Randy Daytona]

This. In a nutshell, SSKs and SSPs cannot meet our national security needs. If we find ourselves needing to do coastal defense with those platforms, which is pretty much all they can do, then we are already in a world of hurt.

Question: Would it not make sense to have some of these near choke points and the littorals: i.e., Mediterranean, South China Sea? If you can get 7 of these for the price of 1 nuke would it not be better to have 7 of these boats in this area? Perhaps not necessarily hunting in the vast expanses of the Atlantic or the Pacific but in confined areas where range and speed are not as much a factor as on station presence and the flexibility that comes with greater numbers? In other words, if it makes sense to have a littoral combat ship, why not a littoral combat sub?

 

[SynixMan]

Question: Would it not make sense to have some of these near choke points and the littorals: i.e., Mediterranean, South China Sea? If you can get 7 of these for the price of 1 nuke would it not be better to have 7 of these boats in this area? Perhaps not necessarily hunting in the vast expanses of the Atlantic or the Pacific but in confined areas where range and speed are not as much a factor as on station presence and the flexibility that comes with greater numbers? In other words, if it makes sense to have a littoral combat ship, why not a littoral combat sub?

I don't think we've actually verified that's a true statement. LCS hasn't exactly worked out. In any event, the Virginia class is the US Navy's version of a cheaper sub platform. It can do everything that's needed at a cheaper price than its predecessors (Seawolf), and is one of the few acquisition "success stories". It project power and meets our objectives. All other submarine money is going to be tied up in SSBN(X) for the foreseeable future.