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Look at those sheep?

Lawman

Well-Known Member
None
I think maybe some people also just get scared to get involved if they see people beating a person, in case it is some type of gang or something that could come after their family (or maybe that's just me and I am being paranoid, IMO you never know though). I would at least call the police though.

I bring forth the most celebrated case in whether or not a person has a legal obligation to notify law enforcement when a person is being attacked. If you take a CJ degree you will know this case before its over. Also if you watched The Boondock Saints the surmon the priest in the opening scene is talking about is a reference to this attack.

Kitty Genovese was stabbed to death on a public street in 1964 while thirty-eight onlookers did nothing to help her. Not one of those people notified the Police. When the attacker Winston Moseley was later interviewed after his apprehension by police detectives and asked why he wasnt worried about people stopping him he said he wasnt worried because it was night time and it was cold and nobody was going to put on their coat and come out in the night to help a women they didnt know. The attacks spanned approximately half an hour in which time she was attacked in multiple places in the parking lot and sexually assaulted and finally robbed of her money.
 

Random8145

Registered User
Contributor
I wouldn't think people would be legally obligated to call the police, as the police themselves are not legally obligated to protect a person from my understanding.

I just think most people reason, "Oh God, that's terrible, but Christ, I'm not getting involved with this, I've got enough problems already, and what if this guy is with the mob or a gang of some type or something..." Then again though, most people who do something like that are probably just punk losers, so who knows.

Some people also might be afraid that if they hurt the guy doing the raping, they themself might get jailed or something, as our law system can be screwy sometimes (or people have that impression anyway).

And I'm sure a lot of people are just plain cowards too.
 

Kickflip89

Below Ladder
None
Contributor
I bring forth the most celebrated case in whether or not a person has a legal obligation to notify law enforcement when a person is being attacked.

Final episode of Seinfeld? It wasn't that celebrated :).


I can understand the bystander effect. During my sophomore year there were a bunch of people hanging out at my apartment. One of the guys and his friends decided to play a practical joke and stage a fake kidnapping.

So there's this knock on the door, and I'm talking to the "target" of the napping. I get up to go get the door (it is my apartment after all), and he's like "I'll get it." So when he comes in 2 guys wearing Ski masks bust through the door, one proceeds to fake hit him with the baseball bat, the other then rushes him out while the baseball bat guy pulls out a card from his jacket and drops it on the floor and runs out.

Once I figured out what was going on I kind of started laughing, but in the 10 seconds or so all this took place everyone else FLED. A few people LOCKED OUT other guests from the bathroom! Perhaps they were simply being dramatic, but I thought then that it was pretty telling that in a fake kidnapping no one was ready to confront the "attackers".
 

skidkid

CAS Czar
pilot
Super Moderator
Contributor
Final episode of Seinfeld? It wasn't that celebrated :).


I can understand the bystander effect. During my sophomore year there were a bunch of people hanging out at my apartment. One of the guys and his friends decided to play a practical joke and stage a fake kidnapping.

So there's this knock on the door, and I'm talking to the "target" of the napping. I get up to go get the door (it is my apartment after all), and he's like "I'll get it." So when he comes in 2 guys wearing Ski masks bust through the door, one proceeds to fake hit him with the baseball bat, the other then rushes him out while the baseball bat guy pulls out a card from his jacket and drops it on the floor and runs out.

Once I figured out what was going on I kind of started laughing, but in the 10 seconds or so all this took place everyone else FLED. A few people LOCKED OUT other guests from the bathroom! Perhaps they were simply being dramatic, but I thought then that it was pretty telling that in a fake kidnapping no one was ready to confront the "attackers".

Good way to get shot, lucky you are all obviously sheep.
 

Flash

SEVAL/ECMO
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
I bring forth the most celebrated case in whether or not a person has a legal obligation to notify law enforcement when a person is being attacked. If you take a CJ degree you will know this case before its over. Also if you watched The Boondock Saints the surmon the priest in the opening scene is talking about is a reference to this attack.

Kitty Genovese was stabbed to death on a public street in 1964 while thirty-eight onlookers did nothing to help her. Not one of those people notified the Police. When the attacker Winston Moseley was later interviewed after his apprehension by police detectives and asked why he wasnt worried about people stopping him he said he wasnt worried because it was night time and it was cold and nobody was going to put on their coat and come out in the night to help a women they didnt know. The attacks spanned approximately half an hour in which time she was attacked in multiple places in the parking lot and sexually assaulted and finally robbed of her money.

While it is still an example of the 'bystander effect' several of the widely accepted facts about the case are now disputed, including that there were '38 witnesses'. Apparently some who actually did witness some of the crime did not realize what they were seeing at the time. The origin of the 38 witnesses' was from a New York Times article about the crime about two weeks after it happened.

http://www.wilsoncenter.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=wq.essay&essay_id=216045

http://www.oldkewgardens.com/kitty_genovese-001.html
 

Lawman

Well-Known Member
None
Yes Flash but the original point is still there. This is the legal case that established codified law that you had no legal obligation either civil or criminal to render any kind of assistance or notify emergency services that a crime was being committed.
 

KSUFLY

Active Member
pilot
A good example of the bystander effect is Virginia Tech. So many people and so little was done by any of them.
 

Flash

SEVAL/ECMO
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Yes Flash but the original point is still there. This is the legal case that established codified law that you had no legal obligation either civil or criminal to render any kind of assistance or notify emergency services that a crime was being committed.

I realize that, which is why I said:

While it is still an example of the 'bystander effect'
 

xnvyflyer

xnvyflyer
pilot
When I use an ATM or come to a stop at a red light, I pray that scum like this will choose to attempt to victimize me instead of the child or elderly person. No luck thus far, but I wait.
 

Brett327

Well-Known Member
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
When I use an ATM or come to a stop at a red light, I pray that scum like this will choose to attempt to victimize me instead of the child or elderly person. No luck thus far, but I wait.

I bet if you cruise San Ysidro or IB, you could increase your odds. ;)

Brett
 

Catmando

Keep your knots up.
pilot
Super Moderator
Contributor
The sheepdog story originated in a lecture at the USNA by William J. Bennett in 1997. Since then, retired LtCol. Dave Grossman, author of On Killing, has capitalized on Bennett's lecture, and makes a tidy income from frequent speaker's fees, quoting Bennett's lecture while promoting his own books.

Here is the Sheepdog story:
http://hobbes.ncsa.uiuc.edu/onsheepwolvesandsheepdogs.html

While I have some issues with a few of the aspects of the "sheepdog" anecdote, and a few with Grossman's "On Killing", both are well worth reading, instructive, and give a good perspective on the subject.

However, while I'm no psychologist, I do have some personal opinions upon why some people remain spectators when they should not. And why others act.

I have known a few friends – strong-willed, aggressive, and out-in-front type guys - who have said what they would do in certain hypothetical situations. And I certainly believed them. Then later, when they actually did encounter the same situations they had hypothesized, they found that they didn't act anywhere near as they had thought they would. Why is that?

Life and death situations do not normally occur in our lives. They are extremely rare. But when they do, it is primarily our expectations, preparation, and most importantly, our training that determines our actions.

Walking along a busy street in a safe neighborhood, your squadron mate is suddenly stabbed by a passerby. Unless you have trained, or have expected such a threat, this out-of-the-blue action leaves you suddenly in shock and disbelief – for just a moment, you are stunned. You are inactive. (It's the same theory behind those "flash and stun grenades" effective against hardened militants)

If the attack persists, you will try to respond. But your response will be slow, and not at 100%, because you still are surprised, and cannot quite comprehend nor assimilate what is really taking place. Your disbelief slows and drags upon your response. And if the victim is not your "squadron mate", but a total stranger, your reaction if far more slowed as you try to figure out what really is happening, who are the good guys or the bad guys, why is this happening, what are the risks, what can I do, this can't really be happening, can it? Why is this happening? Is this real? Etc., and etc.

Some very few people – and far less than the many who would like to think they would – will react immediately and effectively. But they are the people who have either been trained well for the situation, or have practiced it repeatedly in their minds, or they are the very select few who are hard-wired for immediate and without thinking or pause, reactive response.

While many of us would like to think we are the later personality, those people are extremely rare. (And many of them don't live long either, but they are still to be revered.)

In a life & death situation, your IQ instantly drops by 75%. (I think, more or less.) So when you are thus made very stupid, it is only instinct and training take over. That is why a Marine DI can take the most sniffling momma's boy, and with a little 'training'', and later more specific hardened training turn that weak individual, through repetitive training, to instantly react proactively – without stopping long to analyze such an "unknown" or "unexpected" threat as a stabbing of your buddy in a safe, downtown neighborhood. Through proper training, the former sniffling wimp might well perform well above that of the more 'ideal' warrior, because of his specific and intensive training to react in such a situation.

Most of us are not so trained to react.

Like many of us, I have run many threatening and various scenarios through my mind. So there, we all have a leg up. And some of us have specific training; indeed, another leg up. But like my friends before their incidents, none of us truly know how we really would respond to certain threatening situations. My military friends said their responses were far different than they had originally imagined. That is why I am reluctant to judge anyone in such situations.

[As far as the 'perps' beating up the old WWII Vet, I hope and I'm sure they will be caught and sentenced. And for this specific crime, they will certainly and rightly so, suffer in prision. The 'cons' don't like that crime and will take out their own retribution.]
 

BigRed389

Registered User
None
However, while I'm no psychologist, I do have some personal opinions upon why some people remain spectators when they should not. And why others act.

I have known a few friends – strong-willed, aggressive, and out-in-front type guys - who have said what they would do in certain hypothetical situations. And I certainly believed them. Then later, when they actually did encounter the same situations they had hypothesized, they found that they didn't act anywhere near as they had thought they would. Why is that?

Life and death situations do not normally occur in our lives. They are extremely rare. But when they do, it is primarily our expectations, preparation, and most importantly, our training that determines our actions.

Walking along a busy street in a safe neighborhood, your squadron mate is suddenly stabbed by a passerby. Unless you have trained, or have expected such a threat, this out-of-the-blue action leaves you suddenly in shock and disbelief – for just a moment, you are stunned. You are inactive. (It's the same theory behind those "flash and stun grenades" effective against hardened militants)

If the attack persists, you will try to respond. But your response will be slow, and not at 100%, because you still are surprised, and cannot quite comprehend nor assimilate what is really taking place. Your disbelief slows and drags upon your response. And if the victim is not your "squadron mate", but a total stranger, your reaction if far more slowed as you try to figure out what really is happening, who are the good guys or the bad guys, why is this happening, what are the risks, what can I do, this can't really be happening, can it? Why is this happening? Is this real? Etc., and etc.

Some very few people – and far less than the many who would like to think they would – will react immediately and effectively. But they are the people who have either been trained well for the situation, or have practiced it repeatedly in their minds, or they are the very select few who are hard-wired for immediate and without thinking or pause, reactive response.

While many of us would like to think we are the later personality, those people are extremely rare. (And many of them don't live long either, but they are still to be revered.)

In a life & death situation, your IQ instantly drops by 75%. (I think, more or less.) So when you are thus made very stupid, it is only instinct and training take over. That is why a Marine DI can take the most sniffling momma's boy, and with a little 'training'', and later more specific hardened training turn that weak individual, through repetitive training, to instantly react proactively – without stopping long to analyze such an "unknown" or "unexpected" threat as a stabbing of your buddy in a safe, downtown neighborhood. Through proper training, the former sniffling wimp might well perform well above that of the more 'ideal' warrior, because of his specific and intensive training to react in such a situation.

Most of us are not so trained to react.

Like many of us, I have run many threatening and various scenarios through my mind. So there, we all have a leg up. And some of us have specific training; indeed, another leg up. But like my friends before their incidents, none of us truly know how we really would respond to certain threatening situations. My military friends said their responses were far different than they had originally imagined. That is why I am reluctant to judge anyone in such situations.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=oKfNTTnXhUo

Nonlethal, but perfect example of the above theory IMO.

On one end, the guy's training kicks in and he goes on autopilot.

On the other end, the street punks were expecting another helpless victim since they "outmuscled" the targets, and couldn't deal with the shock of the counterattack.
 
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