Magnetic or True North?

[CAMike]

OK- 1310's and 1110's live in two very different worlds MOST of the time. Mr. DDG Commanding Officer (the only skipper in his world is Alan Hale Jr.) was curious about your knowledge of the aviation world- not necessarily important unless you think his most recent IMAV to re non-skid your flight deck was actually aviation related.

Cut him a break- In SWOland true heading is the only only reference heading due to WISN2 technology etc.. In you're world- magnetic rules. Sometimes I wonder if we all really did work for the same company.

 

[BACONATOR]

Honestly.... don't really care. Variation isn't much out here, and either way, we can change our HSI and MD from Mag to True with a simple button. Glass cockpit is good for certain things. I'd say as long as you know WHAT it is, whichever it is wouldn't matter.

 

[Pags]

The small boys also get a lot of confusion from the different 60 communities. Even to most non-RW aviators, let alone a SWO, a 60 is a 60. I've worked had to convince a CG Captain that we didn't care about winds aft of the beam and all that matters is relative winds. But, he had grown up around HSL guys who have "no winds aft of the beam" built into their SOPs so he was under the impression it was a sweeping and hard and fast rule for ALL helos.

I've also gone to ships that have told me that winds/pitch/roll are in limits, only to refer to my PCL and see that they're not at all within limits. But they're within limits if the HCO is using a 60B wind envelope. It may be funny to see that MC3 on Navy.mil can't differentiate between the different series of 60s, but it's an important distinction for an HCO to understand.

Honestly.... don't really care. Variation isn't much out here, and either way, we can change our HSI and MD from Mag to True with a simple button. Glass cockpit is good for certain things. I'd say as long as you know WHAT it is, whichever it is wouldn't matter.

Yeah, but you already are supposed to know what it is, because it's inherent in the definition. If you start messing with the approved and accepted definition you start confusing people.

If you know that the ship is using true, then by all means switch over to true on the HSI to make the math easier. For instance, at a small boy when they give me foxtrot corpen is 180, i know it's true so I can switch my HSI over to true so I don't wonder if they're a bunch of filthy liars when they said FC is 180 but I'm showing 190. On the Gator when they say BRC is 180 I know it's mag.

OK- 1310's and 1110's live in two very different worlds MOST of the time. Mr. DDG Commanding Officer (the only skipper in his world is Alan Hale Jr.) was curious about your knowledge of the aviation world- not necessarily important unless you think his most recent IMAV to re non-skid your flight deck was actually aviation related.

I say good on the Captain for not having the hubris to assume he knows what is going on and getting an operator over there to talk him through it. Since the flight deck and everything that happens on it is the Captain's responsibility, it's good that he's trying to get an understanding of what was probably just a corrosion and ship's appearance nightmare to him back when he was a divo. The whole "I'm a SWO and I only care about boats and not aircraft" shtick can wear pretty thin when a good number of our ships are air capable and the helo represents a nice sensor and weapons package to complement that ship's organic capabilities.

 

[BACONATOR]

Yeah, but you already are supposed to know what it is, because it's inherent in the definition. If you start messing with the approved and accepted definition you start confusing people.

Right. All I meant to do was shamelessly plug the glass. Honestly, like I said, as long as you know who you're operating with and what they are telling you then I don't care which it is (read: what the poll is asking), as they are interchangeable on my display.

 

[Gatordev]

Honestly.... don't really care. Variation isn't much out here, and either way, we can change our HSI and MD from Mag to True with a simple button. Glass cockpit is good for certain things. I'd say as long as you know WHAT it is, whichever it is wouldn't matter.

Great, so if you're Sierra guy in Guam, you're good. But if you are the entire rest of the Navy, it does matter.

The small boys also get a lot of confusion from the different 60 communities. Even to most non-RW aviators, let alone a SWO, a 60 is a 60. I've worked had to convince a CG Captain that we didn't care about winds aft of the beam and all that matters is relative winds. But, he had grown up around HSL guys who have "no winds aft of the beam" built into their SOPs so he was under the impression it was a sweeping and hard and fast rule for ALL helos.

This is a battle that even HSL guys have to fight. Winds w/in limits are winds w/in limits. In a perfect world, sure, I'd like true winds forward of the beam, especially at night w/ the ship going slow, but if it can't be done, guess what? Winds are still in limits.

I'm sure this is true in some other communities, but HSL, especially HSL-east, seems steeped in "this is how we've done things in the past" (kind of like Shoes, actually) even when there's no rule that mandates it, so resistance to change or the unknown can be frustrating.

Right. All I meant to do was shamelessly plug the glass. Honestly, like I said, as long as you know who you're operating with and what they are telling you then I don't care which it is (read: what the poll is asking), as they are interchangeable on my display.

You're missing the point of what we are all saying. The people "you're operating with" don't even know what they're telling you. Some boats are better than others, but when you have an aviator asking the question (and it's certainly a valid question), how can you expect the Shoes to know it. And it does matter on a lot of airframes because they can't seamlessly switch back and forth.

 

[Schnugg]

Magnetic only.

 

[PhrogLoop]

I say good on the Captain for not having the hubris to assume he knows what is going on and getting an operator over there to talk him through it. Since the flight deck and everything that happens on it is the Captain's responsibility, it's good that he's trying to get an understanding of what was probably just a corrosion and ship's appearance nightmare to him back when he was a divo.

I completely agree which is why I went gladly and even exchanged a det patch for a ship's coin with him. But it still was a pretty humorous event overall.

 

[Pags]

Honestly, like I said, as long as you know who you're operating with and what they are telling you

The whole point of standard comms is that they're, you know, standard. Asking for BRC and having an Airboss say "180 True" just muddies the waters and is going to end up requiring more comms to clarify, thereby clobbering the radios. Having standard terms allows for clear and concise communications exchanging a lot of info without a lot extraneous words. It's the same when I say "break right" or "10 and 10", everyone knows what I'm talking about and we don't have to take the time to explain or think about it.

Finally, it's the mark of professionalism to use the terms correctly.

 

[BACONATOR]

The whole point of standard comms is that they're, you know, standard. Asking for BRC and having an Airboss say "180 True" just muddies the waters and is going to end up requiring more comms to clarify, thereby clobbering the radios. Having standard terms allows for clear and concise communications exchanging a lot of info without a lot extraneous words. It's the same when I say "break right" or "10 and 10", everyone knows what I'm talking about and we don't have to take the time to explain or think about it.

Finally, it's the mark of professionalism to use the terms correctly.

Absolutely agree. Standard comms would be nice, and something to strive for, but it's certainly not what I've seen. The lingo is generally there, but HCO's (non-aviator small-boy ones) knowing the big picture of what's going on is not something realistic to expect. I doubt most of them know if the number they are giving us is true or mag, nor would they know why it matters to us.

In general, I'd say it's important to establish what the standard is going to be and stick with it. I can say I've never sat on deck to confirm the number as mag or true, but that's only because I'm on a LVL II ship and the variance is a couple degrees, so I'll never really NEED to know the BRC with the precision of a couple degrees. Still, pretty certain that the number we get is true, in hindsight.

Only been IMC/IFR once on det, and I can say pretty confidently that Marshal was giving us magnetic vectors....

 

[phrogpilot73]

...it's important to establish what the standard is going to be and stick with it.

Did you READ the thread?

 

[Pags]

In general, I'd say it's important to establish what the standard is going to be and stick with it.

Reading comprehension is at an all time low around here.

There's no need to establish a standard, it's already there, you just need to know it and use it.

so I'll never really NEED to know the BRC with the precision of a couple degrees.
[\QUOTE]

Nothing like an opportunity to use the word "hubris" twice in one thread. You're building habit patterns that will follow you and YOUR future 2Ps and students through your careers. You might not need it now, but you're not going to be a Guam guy forever.

 

[exhelodrvr]

Can Dead Men Vote Twice At Elections (Compass +/- Deviation = Magnetic +/- Variation = True Add East, Subtract West)

True Virgins Make Dull Companions At Weddings (True +/- Variation = Magnetic +/- Deviation = Compass Add West, Subtract East)

Yes, I spent hours of torture in Navigation classes at USNA!!

 

[A4sForever]

Can Dead Men Vote Twice ...
True Virgins Make Dull Companions ...

Wow!! I haven't heard those two gouges for DECADES !!! What's that tucked under your arm?? BOWDITCH ???

The 'true virgins' was always our preferred choice, of course ... for a variety of reasons. It's nice to be a fly-boy instead of a BOAT driver sometimes so you can basically dismiss deviation ... ... and of course, being WestPac sailors, we'd throw in 'West is best, East is least' for the +/- gouge ...

Here's an interesting, if slightly involved, article on some of the thinking behind how the ol' boys used to do it ... from the forum: DEAD RECKONINGS



COMPASS SWING, anyone ... ???

 

[Alpha_Echo_606]

COMPASS SWING, anyone ... ???

I did one of those just a couple months ago, June I think it was. I’ll be heading back to the Compass Rose sometime next year.

 

[Gatordev]

Reading comprehension is at an all time low around here.

There's no need to establish a standard, it's already there, you just need to know it and use it.

so I'll never really NEED to know the BRC with the precision of a couple degrees.
[\QUOTE]

Nothing like an opportunity to use the word "hubris" twice in one thread. You're building habit patterns that will follow you and YOUR future 2Ps and students through your careers. You might not need it now, but you're not going to be a Guam guy forever.

And that's not even bringing into account that YOU as the aviator need to teach the HCOs and train them. Should they know? Sure, but they don't, so you have to set them on the right path.

Can Dead Men Vote Twice At Elections (Compass +/- Deviation = Magnetic +/- Variation = True Add East, Subtract West)

True Virgins Make Dull Companions At Weddings (True +/- Variation = Magnetic +/- Deviation = Compass Add West, Subtract East)

Yes, I spent hours of torture in Navigation classes at USNA!!

Wow!! I haven't heard those two gouges for DECADES !!! What's that tucked under your arm?? BOWDITCH ???

I still use the True Virgins when I'm at the boat in the LSO shack. I don't think it came from Bowditch, but it was taught in THE Navy navigation text book written by Hobbes. Unfortunately, in version 4, they changed it to a more politically correct phrase. I of course don't remember what the phrase is because it was so bland. Go figure.

And yes, I'm a navigation nerd, in part because I taught it for 3 semesters.

Edit: Why are the quote tags getting messed up? Weird.