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Manhattan aviation accident...
- Thread starter scoober78
- Start date
BEGIN ??? Naaaaaaaa ... it doesn't "begin" ... I already told you .... it's too much money and too much ego and too much time on your hands .... and "unrealized" expectations about oneself. Many civilians who "want" to be aviators are adventurous and risk-takers.
But .... you still have "unqualified people" at the controls .... there's just no getting around that .... and who's gonna tell 'em ... "NO" .... certainly NOT the guys who are paid to go along and get along.
I've seen this stuff for 40 years .... and I have prejudices about "civil" aviation that are rooted in lots experience and lots of dead guys.
Sorry if I'm not being "civil" and/or burst some bubbles ....
But .... you still have "unqualified people" at the controls .... there's just no getting around that .... and who's gonna tell 'em ... "NO" .... certainly NOT the guys who are paid to go along and get along.
I've seen this stuff for 40 years .... and I have prejudices about "civil" aviation that are rooted in lots experience and lots of dead guys.
Sorry if I'm not being "civil" and/or burst some bubbles ....
BEGIN ??? Naaaaaaaa ... it doesn't "begin" ... I already told you .... it's too much money and too much ego and too much time on your hands .... and "unrealized" expectations about oneself. Many civilians who "want" to be aviators are adventurous and risk-takers.
But .... you still have "unqualified people" at the controls .... there's just no getting around that .... and who's gonna tell 'em ... "NO" .... certainly NOT the guys who are paid to go along and get along.
I've seen this stuff for 40 years .... and I have prejudices about "civil" aviation that are rooted in lots experience and lots of dead guys.
Sorry if I'm not being "civil" and/or burst some bubbles ....
This is how I picture A4s as he typed this post:
Where did it start in this country that when you "disagree" with someone, ............ you're "angry" ... gimme a break.
Are some of you guys just PC pantywaists .... or worse ??? Your '60's hippie parents should be proud, if so ....
This picture is more attuned to my view of the world when I posted ...
Last article I read said helos were excluded fromthe new ban, only towards fixed wing. And it sounds like they can still do the route, just have to talk to ATC and get approval to do it. I'm sure the NYC area controllers didn't already have enough to worry about as it is. Before too long its going to be illegal to have at all cause you might get injured.
A4's,
I'm not disagreeing with your overall hypothesis that many people get their PPL and do irresponsible things with them. I remember one guy who killed his wife, himself, and his kids trying to fly them away from Alabama in his shiny new plane (hadn't quite earned that PPL yet, BTW) before hurricane Ivan hit us on the Gulf Coast. Tragic AND stupid. At the same time, it really seems like a guy who takes the time to earn his license and continue flying with an instructor to build experience is exactly the kind of thing we should want for GA (minus the hitting the building part). How does it show that he had more plane than he could handle, or was incompetent simply because he chose to have an instructor aboard? When I left NS Roosevelt Roads on my sailboat to take it to San Diego, I hired a Captain to help. It wasn't because I didn't know how to sail. As it turned out, we had no major problems, and I probably could have done it with a few buddies and saved myself a lot of cash. I simply didn't feel I had the experience to operate in that kind of environment solo. I would call that kind of honesty about your personal level of expertise a good headwork move. I would have said it was irresonsible if he had hit that building and we learned he was in the plane by himself with only 88 hours. Am I missing something?
I'm not disagreeing with your overall hypothesis that many people get their PPL and do irresponsible things with them. I remember one guy who killed his wife, himself, and his kids trying to fly them away from Alabama in his shiny new plane (hadn't quite earned that PPL yet, BTW) before hurricane Ivan hit us on the Gulf Coast. Tragic AND stupid. At the same time, it really seems like a guy who takes the time to earn his license and continue flying with an instructor to build experience is exactly the kind of thing we should want for GA (minus the hitting the building part). How does it show that he had more plane than he could handle, or was incompetent simply because he chose to have an instructor aboard? When I left NS Roosevelt Roads on my sailboat to take it to San Diego, I hired a Captain to help. It wasn't because I didn't know how to sail. As it turned out, we had no major problems, and I probably could have done it with a few buddies and saved myself a lot of cash. I simply didn't feel I had the experience to operate in that kind of environment solo. I would call that kind of honesty about your personal level of expertise a good headwork move. I would have said it was irresonsible if he had hit that building and we learned he was in the plane by himself with only 88 hours. Am I missing something?
Not as far as I can see. I agree with everything you said.
Yeah...the East River....east side of Manhattan. The Hudson is on the west. The Statue of Liberty really isn't in either river...kinda in the bay...but I tend to agree. The Hudson is the more senic and not banned as near as I can tell from the FAA website.
Probably not a bad place to request flight following in any case though.
I guess it didn't come out well. I was trying to say that when an incident happens it is more likely to result in a death.
Basically, when you look at any/all incidents any casualties that occur tend to be deaths.
"It's more lethal to get hit with a bullet than be in a car crash."
(it was just a guess. As my earlier reply was prefaced.)
At first the media suggested it was possibly a helo crash. I wonder if the knee would have jerked in the other direction saying helos are bad fixed is good had it been the other way around.
There have been car crashes in NYC in the past year. I propose we stop cars from driving in the city. Or better yet if we stop people from walking, no one will trip. Now everyone will be perfectly safe. Lets see, as far as I can tell the last time a plane accidentally crashed into a building in NYC was 1945. So thats 1 crash in 61 years. Theres been a few more fatal car crashes in NYC since then. Why is it that the people who know nothing about aviation, the people who think a plane gets its lift from magic, think that all of a sudden we should restrict light planes (that can turn into flying bombs with a stick of dynamite) when its more dangerous to go walking in central park?
I'm not trying to argue with anyone; and your examples, while nice and correct given their scope and breadth, have little to do with a general comment re: having too much money (lifestyle opinion), having too much time (lifestyle opinion), 88 hours (fact), and flying up the East River (fact). And having an instructor aboard does not seem to have been the deal maker, either .... does it ???
I'd be hard pressed to take an aerial "tour" of the area unless I had to, were someone to ask me. I can say the same for LA, SFO, DFW, ORD, and many, many other "metro" areas. I know what the traffic is like in them and most people have "zero" look-out doctrine :icon_nav_. I would decline just on that basis, alone.
I don't know if you're missing something. I'm missing an accident report. I don't know what happened to them. Geraldo Rivera knows ... he laid it all out on TV.
...But .... I still have opinion(s) based on lots of flying .... I've been right and I've been wrong in the past. That's how you get experience --- being wrong. Hopefully, it won't kill you. I think a lot of GA is an accident waiting to happen --- opinion --- but I also think the same of most drivers on the road.
..... or aren't we suppose to discuss any of this so that others might glean whatever insight there is to be had from the discourse ????
P.S. ... I love you boys ... :icon_kiss
Can’t speak to the cause of this accident, but...the wealthy dilettante pursuing dangerous excitement seems to have increased in numbers.
· The novice sailor who decides to put his brand new ketch through the ringer during the fall on a trip from the Bahamas to Cape Cod and gets hammered in Diamond Shoals
· The dot-com millionaire who dabbles in mountain climbing & gets in the hurt locker when a storm comes up
· The Mooney driving dentist who turns into a smoking hole in the mountains of West Virginia.
I can speak to the first one; as I have been involved in rescues of folks with more money than sense. Inexperienced people + big expensive boat (or plane) can result in tragedy. Of course, what you call tragedy, I call job security.
· The novice sailor who decides to put his brand new ketch through the ringer during the fall on a trip from the Bahamas to Cape Cod and gets hammered in Diamond Shoals
· The dot-com millionaire who dabbles in mountain climbing & gets in the hurt locker when a storm comes up
· The Mooney driving dentist who turns into a smoking hole in the mountains of West Virginia.
I can speak to the first one; as I have been involved in rescues of folks with more money than sense. Inexperienced people + big expensive boat (or plane) can result in tragedy. Of course, what you call tragedy, I call job security.
I wouldn't drive in NYC either...
I gotta agree with this statement. Nowhere near the experience of alot of the members here...but the GA world is a scarry place sometimes. There is alot of the bravado/daredevil mentality, alot of "big fish in a small pond" syndrome (you all know the "best" hotdog pilot at your local FBO/airport). Couple that with the fact that the average GA pilot will not fly the hours a military pilot flies in a year in their entire lives...no cloud ticket...
GA courts disaster when you compare it to commercial or military aviation.
A stark fact is that the average GA pilot flies in a year the same number of hours an airline bubba flies in 3 days.