Marine LDO

[bobbybrock]

Just curious,
I was wondering if any of you Marine bubbas could answer this question? Do the Marines have LDO's like the Navy? If so, did they ever hold rated flying billets? And did Warrants ever hold rated flying billets( aside from C-130 nav slots) like the Army?

 

[46Driver]

Yes, the Marines have LDO's. We had a couple of CW3's get promoted to LDO captain in my fleet squadron. I don't know if any ever held flying billets in the past but none have recently. Last warrant officer that I heard that held a pilot billet retired from MCAS New River in the early '90's when we phased out the OV-10 Broncos.

 

[bobbybrock]

46 driver,
Thanks for the quick reply. I'm an Army H-60 IP who is really curious about how you guys do business. Many in my branch feel that the army should adopt a LDO type program to to replace the Aviation Warrant program we presently have.
I know that Marine pilots are not LDO's, but things in the army are getting pretty bad and something has to change.

 

[EA-6B1]

LDO?

 

[46Driver]

They have talked about doing the same thing in Navy/Marine Corps aviation. The idea was having pilots who do nothing but fly but being limited in rank to nothing higher than an O-3 or O-4. Don't think anything will ever change with the current manpower structure (you can only have some many officers in a particular rank) and the Up or Out policy. However with Rumsfeld in charge, who knows what will happen.

Couple of quick questions about the H-60. How many fully-loaded troops can you carry? Can you external a Humvee? What is your endurance with a full load of troops? (In a 46, its about 2 hours at 120 knots with 12 troops.) What is a typical loadout on the DAP package? Thanks for the info.

LDO is a Limited Duty Officer.

 

[bobbybrock]

46 driver,
Well our friends in the German Army do just that. They have pilots who will max out at 0-3 or 0-4. And that is what many Army Aviators would like.
As far as the H-60, we can carry 11 troopers plus a crew cheif and gunner. If we have the waiver we can go seats out. In that configuration we can go as many as 20( the most I've seen). As far as our endurance? It all depends. In a bird with internal tanks you're looking at 5 plus. But you're trading off internal troop hauling capability.With external tanks you can carry the afore mentioned strength w/ about 5 hours endurnce. With a task force bird ( in flight refuelable) endurance is unlimited. All done at about a buck 120.
In the L model 60 we can go up to 9000 bills external. So yes we can do a standard Hummer. I've done a FLS which comes in at about 8500. The L models max gross weight is 23500.
As far as the 160 boys DAP load, I think it is about 19500 to 21000 bills. Rememebr that these aren't your standard fleet aircraft. They have all the bells and whistles on them.
In most tactical profiles we too cruise at about a buck 120.
What do most of the guys think of the possibility of being able to stay in a flying billet throughout their career?

 

[AviatorMR239]

I was seriously looking into the Army's warrant officer flight training program which was introduced to me after I developed a facination with the operations in Somalia after reading "Black Hawk Down" and "In The Company of Heros" by Mike Durrant (pilot of Super 64 which was the second bird shot down, he was severely injured and spent 11 days as a POW). The life of a warrant officer appeals to some and is frowned at by others. The chance to be a commissioned officer in the Marine Corps is something I have to give a shot at.... but you can't deny the cool factor of the H-64, especially the 160th SOAR direct action penetrator...bad ass bird. I read about that being the brain child of Cliff Wolcott, the pilot who was shot down and killed over Mogadishu. Must be a kick in the ass to be experiment with your platform with near unlimited funding.

 

[bobbybrock]

In regards to the last reply,
The 160th is an excellent unit. But it belongs to SOCOM ( Special Ops Command ) not the regular army. Most of the pilots in the units are very experienced. Probably 2500 hours is the norm.
I'm not sure how to read your gouge on the DAP bird. But it is based on the H-60 frame, not the H-64.
As you said the Warrant program is frowned on by some. Well the biggest opponents of it are probably the warrants. I'm a CWO3 H-60 IP. I have a degree in Applied Math and I have to teach brand new nugget 0-1's right out of flight training. Most hold some liberal arts type of degree. These 0-1's will spend 12 to 18 months in the cockpit. Then they will move to a staff position. Then as an 0-3 they will get back in the cockpit. But they will coommand a group of pilots whom have close twice as much flight time as them. For you guys in the Navy and marines this must seem crazy. For most of us in the Army it does. But the Army leadership still doesn't get it.

 

[bobbybrock]

In regards to the last reply,
The 160th is an excellent unit. But it belongs to SOCOM ( Special Ops Command ) not the regular army. Most of the pilots in the units are very experienced. Probably 2500 hours is the norm.
I'm not sure how to read your gouge on the DAP bird. But it is based on the H-60 frame, not the H-64.
As you said the Warrant program is frowned on by some. Well the biggest opponents of it are probably the warrants. I'm a CWO3 H-60 IP. I have a degree in Applied Math and I have to teach brand new nugget 0-1's right out of flight training. Most hold some liberal arts type of degree. These 0-1's will spend 12 to 18 months in the cockpit. Then they will move to a staff position. Then as an 0-3 they will get back in the cockpit. But they will coommand a group of pilots whom have close twice as much flight time as them. For you guys in the Navy and marines this must seem crazy. For most of us in the Army it does. But the Army leadership still doesn't get it.

 

[46Driver]

Bobby,
I did want to ask this. The impression we have is that warrants stay in their MOS and thus only fly. Is that correct? As for us in the Navy and the Marines, we do constant rotations (roughly 3 or 4 years each) between our primary MOS (whichever helo or jet we get) and then school, ground, staff, etc tours.

 

[rare21]

The Navy used to have that type of aviation LDO program. Back in the 80s there was a drought of qualified instructors. They'd get enlisted folks send them to AOCS send them to navy flight school and at the end they'd get commissioned and winged on the same day. they're only job was to fly the T-34 and instruct other future naval aviators but as you can see that was done away with a long time ago. My T-34 systems instructor was a part of this and retired as an O-4. Before that he was an Army Warrant Officer flying Huey's in Vietnam, quit that joined the enlisted Navy became a senior chief then did this LDO program. Thats one hell of a life.

 

[bobbybrock]

46 driver
Yes that is correct. As warrants we spend most of our time in the cockpit. As you get more senior your position will change from a Company to a BN position. Companies do all the flying in the army. The BN is there parent unit. So the Senior IP , Mantinence Pilot, Safety Officer,
TAc Ops Officer are all in Battalion level jobs. They all still fly. Most have about 2500 hours or more. Compare that to the two 0-4's who are staff guys in the same battlion. Most have less then 1000 hours. Yes, that was not a typo. Less then 1000 hours for an 0-4. The two 0-4's in my present unit don't fly at all. They are what we call FAC three. They pocket flight pay, but will never fly the aircraft. There what we called combined arms officers.

 

[AviatorMR239]

it was a typo when i stated h-64 before.. quite obviously it's the h-60 blackhawk... i've had the opporunity to talk to a few army W/O's... like the communities of any platform they have some distinguishing characteristics... very professional and yet rough around the edges

 

[bobbybrock]

46driver,
I have a question concerning what type of training you guys recieve at the FRS or RAG. And is there a difference between the two. As I understand it, new aviators attend the FRS or RAG and are given mission training in their particular airframe. That way they are mission qualified when they arrive at the sqaudron? Or is this just an advanced aircraft qual course?

 

[46Driver]

Bobby,
First, the FRS is for Marines, the RAG is for Navy - no difference, just different names. Mostly, it is just an advanced aircraft course where you learn your fleet aircraft. You will get a few sims and about 50 hours worth of flight time. You do get your initial combat quals and your initial NVG flights (we are not doing NVG's at Whiting now but plan to at South Whiting by roughly 2006) However, most of your quals come in your fleet squadron. I think Phrogdriver might have a better handle on this - I spent most of my time working downstairs in maintenance. (Maintenance is another qual in a fleet squadron - some guys get it, some don't - but it is not a separate track from what I hear it is like in the Army.)