Midshipman Rank

[BACONATOR]

Love how a middie thread turned into SNCOs trying to pull rank on JOs. Since I'm brand new, I've never had a real problem yet with a dick chief bending the boundaries. Honestly, from what I have silently observed of others, the above is gold. If a chief gives you his polite suggestion (while thinking you're a complete idiot douche) that you ignore, then you bring it on yourself. If you're doing the right thing and a chief starts raising his voice to you, saying your plan is stupid, etc.... that shit is just unprofessional and completely unacceptable. Hell, I don't think it's appropriate if a senior officer basically told you your idea/plan/etc is stupid etc, but they can certainly most likely get away with it.

I have seen a fair number of senior petty officers get a little too lax with JOs but far less from the chiefs. The khaki does wonders for military bearing and professionalism.... it's a distinct jump. Just like I would never yell at any subordinate, I would never tolerate being berated, insulted, or spoken to in a friendly, familiar manner... certainly not by a senior enlisted. If they do it (in public) it becomes open season for all who see it. They need to set the example. And you'll hear pretty quickly who are the good chiefs/LPOs and who are not... junior enlisted talk with a certain impunity in the spaces.... shutting up and listening is a college education sometimes.

Point is, always be professional and courteous and you'll NEVER be wrong in correcting those who aren't. And if/when you DO correct them, again, do so professionally.

 

[NYYanks]

Piggybacking on your post, one of the things I've noticed is the good NCO's I've met always had the "strongly suggest/recommend" approach in providing guidance to their JO's.

I have to agree. The SNCO, or CPO community in the Navy is tasked with training JO's, it's just the way it is. Obviously rank is rank, but for arguments sake, if a JO (lets say, an O 1or 2) tries to "boss" around a MCPO, their going to get their dick slammed in the door. UCMJ aside, I have never met a senior Officer who would back a new Ensign or JG with pursuing UCMJ charges against a senior Enlisted (khaki type). Unless said Khaki is a douche bag, that JO will get laughed at if they try to flex their new bars. Obviously it is all situation specific, but a good khaki will approach situations like BigRed said. There is the obvious rank is rank scenario, but you can't put up a butter bar and 3 days experience against a MCPO with 27 yrs experience, it's not gonna happen. But getting back to the OP, if a Mid came on my ship and started barking orders at me, he would quickly be told to get bent in a not so PC manner.

 

[NYYanks]

Love how a middie thread turned into SNCOs trying to pull rank on JOs. Since I'm brand new, I've never had a real problem yet with a dick chief bending the boundaries. Honestly, from what I have silently observed of others, the above is gold. If a chief gives you his polite suggestion (while thinking you're a complete idiot douche) that you ignore, then you bring it on yourself. If you're doing the right thing and a chief starts raising his voice to you, saying your plan is stupid, etc.... that shit is just unprofessional and completely unacceptable. Hell, I don't think it's appropriate if a senior officer basically told you your idea/plan/etc is stupid etc, but they can certainly most likely get away with it.

I have seen a fair number of senior petty officers get a little too lax with JOs but far less from the chiefs. The khaki does wonders for military bearing and professionalism.... it's a distinct jump. Just like I would never yell at any subordinate, I would never tolerate being berated, insulted, or spoken to in a friendly, familiar manner... certainly not by a senior enlisted. If they do it (in public) it becomes open season for all who see it. They need to set the example. And you'll hear pretty quickly who are the good chiefs/LPOs and who are not... junior enlisted talk with a certain impunity in the spaces.... shutting up and listening is a college education sometimes.

Point is, always be professional and courteous and you'll NEVER be wrong in correcting those who aren't. And if/when you DO correct them, again, do so professionally.

+1. In the end of the day, it's all about professionalism. If a SNCO knocks down (like the one tried to do to Phrog) a new JO in front of everyone, they should be kicked in the nuts. It's their job to build and train, not knock down and demand special treatment

 

[phrogpilot73]

UCMJ aside, I have never met a senior Officer who would back a new Ensign or JG with pursuing UCMJ charges against a senior Enlisted (khaki type)...

There is the obvious rank is rank scenario, but you can't put up a butter bar and 3 days experience against a MCPO with 27 yrs experience, it's not gonna happen.

Yes, you can. It doesn't fucking matter that he's got three days of experience as a butter bar. He's a fucking commissioned officer. I personally think that's the biggest fucking problem with the Navy, they've over-empowered their senior enlisted. So much so that it's to the point that a junior officer is subordinate to a Chief.

Perfect example - my last deployment, they were anal retentive about blue-green hours in the gym, and a company XO was told he had to leave (even though he wasn't using equipment, and was only doing post-workout stretching on the outskirts of the gym). Later in the deployment, he went to the gym during green hours to work out and all the treadmills were occupied. One of them was occupied by a Chief. He tried to approach it diplomatically, until the Chief looked at him and said "I'm a Chief, I don't have to listen to you." It got ugly and the Chief got a charge sheet written on him for disrespect. It got sweeped under the rug by the ship's XO, because it was a Chief. Un-fucking-sat.

Oh, and this wasn't some first-tour, still learning the ropes officer. This was a former platoon commander who was in the battle for Fallujah.

 

[BACONATOR]

I think part of the problem (at how I initially felt) is a brand new Officer is a completely clueless snot-nosed kid who needs a lot of direction. We know this, they know this. On top of that, a 23 year old JG is now in charge of a 28 year old LPO, 30 year old chief etc.... it feels awkward for us. Of course over time we all get over it and learn to have that professional confidence to give orders when shit has to get done. But I think, at first, brand new JOs are a bit tentative and the SNCOs are a bit overconfident and know the "new guy" is gonna be a little meek and uncertain. That dynamic lends itself to the SNCO overstepping the bounds of professionalism. Time fixes that, as with anything else in the Navy.... hard knocks and OJT.

 

[NYYanks]

Yes, you can. It doesn't fucking matter that he's got three days of experience as a butter bar. He's a fucking commissioned officer. I personally think that's the biggest fucking problem with the Navy, they've over-empowered their senior enlisted. So much so that it's to the point that a junior officer is subordinate to a Chief.

Perfect example - my last deployment, they were anal retentive about blue-green hours in the gym, and a company XO was told he had to leave (even though he wasn't using equipment, and was only doing post-workout stretching on the outskirts of the gym). Later in the deployment, he went to the gym during green hours to work out and all the treadmills were occupied. One of them was occupied by a Chief. He tried to approach it diplomatically, until the Chief looked at him and said "I'm a Chief, I don't have to listen to you." It got ugly and the Chief got a charge sheet written on him for disrespect. It got sweeped under the rug by the ship's XO, because it was a Chief. Un-fucking-sat.

Oh, and this wasn't some first-tour, still learning the ropes officer. This was a former platoon commander who was in the battle for Fallujah.

The over empowerment happens across all services, though admittedly so, the Mess is a unique entity for both good and bad reasons. What the XO did is an example of why you can't put that butter bar against a CPO. The CPO will be backed due to his experience. Was that Chief right? Fuck no, he should have been kicked in the balls. However, there are many Officers out there who have the mentality of strolling through parking lots at the exchange looking for salutes for whatever reason (build their self esteem). Should they go and try to put a Chief on report if he doesn't render a sharp salute to the self imposed parking lot patrol? It's been said many times here and other places, JO's should be in "shut the fuck up mode" and absorb as much knowledge as they can. I agree though, despite being the FNG, O-1's (hell even the junior E's) should be treated with respect. As Otto said, it's about being professional. Again, to reiterate, that Chief should have gotten a steel toe to the nads and kicked off the treadmill.

 

[BACONATOR]

Who the fuck goes trolling for salutes? I think I did that the day I commissioned..... After that I stay indoors to the max extent possible so I don't have to throw up a 100 salutes just to go get a fucking sandwich. My right arm already gets enough exercise.

Yes, groups of E's stagger their salutes on purpose just to fuck with the JO and make him salute 400 times.... all in good fun.

 

[usmarinemike]

Nobody should get to the fleet with that butterbar unsurety that so many talk about. That's why I still can't comprehend how SWOs go straight from commissioning source to ship with no kind of schooling at all, if not for the skills, for the transition. Many are going to say it doesn't matter and that it works, but I think some of the arguments in this thread are a result of going straight from university or OCS to boat. That's throwing the new O-1 to the wolves and setting them up in a very weak position.

 

[MIDNJAC]

However, there are many Officers out there who have the mentality of strolling through parking lots at the exchange looking for salutes for whatever reason (build their self esteem). Should they go and try to put a Chief on report if he doesn't render a sharp salute to the self imposed parking lot patrol?

I have yet to meet the fellow officer who does this; not saying there aren't some, but I haven't met one yet (maybe I'm just working in the wrong places). On several occasions I have had to correct a junior sailor in or around said parking lot due to blatant lack of professional courtesy (no salute, no greeting, nothing, even after I have pimped them with a "morning/afternoon"/etc)....do you think that it makes me feel good or special? No, I feel like a dick, but I also feel that I have an obligation to uphold the standards of the service. If not me, then who is it going to be, who has to correct the guy? The base skipper? A more senior dude who will make the situation even more awkward? Interesting fact though.....I've NEVER had this experience with a chief.

 

[Rubiks06]

The over empowerment happens across all services, though admittedly so, the Mess is a unique entity for both good and bad reasons. What the XO did is an example of why you can't put that butter bar against a CPO. The CPO will be backed due to his experience. Was that Chief right? Fuck no, he should have been kicked in the balls. However, there are many Officers out there who have the mentality of strolling through parking lots at the exchange looking for salutes for whatever reason (build their self esteem). Should they go and try to put a Chief on report if he doesn't render a sharp salute to the self imposed parking lot patrol? It's been said many times here and other places, JO's should be in "shut the fuck up mode" and absorb as much knowledge as they can. I agree though, despite being the FNG, O-1's (hell even the junior E's) should be treated with respect. As Otto said, it's about being professional. Again, to reiterate, that Chief should have gotten a steel toe to the nads and kicked off the treadmill.

So maybe im the parking lot patrol...maybe im just big on the professionalism and customs. My thought on this are if you let that Chief blow you off, im not talking didnt see you, but clearly..looks you in the eye and keeps walking two things happen. 1) The junior enlisted sailor standing behind him/you see it and think that its ok to blow Officers off. 2) There is respect lost somewhere. The Chief for you....wether the respect was there or not and probably you for the Chief. Im not saying chase them through the parking lot, but there are standards in our Navy and if we don't uphold them whats the point?

I too have never had this happen with a Chief.

 

[Swanee]

I have yet to meet the fellow officer who does this; not saying there aren't some, but I haven't met one yet (maybe I'm just working in the wrong places). On several occasions I have had to correct a junior sailor in or around said parking lot due to blatant lack of professional courtesy (no salute, no greeting, nothing, even after I have pimped them with a "morning/afternoon"/etc)....do you think that it makes me feel good or special? No, I feel like a dick, but I also feel that I have an obligation to uphold the standards of the service. If not me, then who is it going to be, who has to correct the guy? The base skipper? A more senior dude who will make the situation even more awkward? Interesting fact though.....I've NEVER had this experience with a chief.

I think part of the problem is that so many JOs have let the standard slide simply because they have no balls. I'm sorry but a 2nd Lt or an Ensign that doesn't correct an enlisted man or woman (Junior, NCO, SNCO, Chief... whichever) has just enforced/created a new standard. The excuse that they don't want to be a dick or don't think it's their place or anything else is bullshit. There is a time and a place however. I wouldn't do it in front of someone's wife/family...

I have had one Chief blatantly ignore me while I was walking towards the clinic. A simple "Chief, what would you say to your new sailors if they walked by an Officer without giving the proper greeting of the day or a salute?" pretty much fixed the situation. However, here at MATSG, I have yet to have an NCO or SNCO (Included the SgtMaj) walk by me without a greeting and a salute when appropriate. Some of the Privates and PFC's have to be reminded, but usually it's because they are young and still shit themselves when they see an Officer...

 

[navy09]

That's why I still can't comprehend how SWOs go straight from commissioning source to ship with no kind of schooling at all, if not for the skills, for the transition.

Even if you go to school, you still have to get your fleet cherry popped at some point. SUPPOs spend 6 months in school before coming to the boat and they still have that clueless, deer in the headlights look when they check onboard just like everyone else.

Bottom line, act like an officer and you'll be treated like one. Never think for a second you're better than or smarter than anyone just because you're wearing a khaki belt.

 

[scoolbubba]

Love how a middie thread turned into SNCOs trying to pull rank on JOs. Since I'm brand new, I've never had a real problem yet with a dick chief bending the boundaries. Honestly, from what I have silently observed of others, the above is gold. If a chief gives you his polite suggestion (while thinking you're a complete idiot douche) that you ignore, then you bring it on yourself. If you're doing the right thing and a chief starts raising his voice to you, saying your plan is stupid, etc.... that shit is just unprofessional and completely unacceptable. Hell, I don't think it's appropriate if a senior officer basically told you your idea/plan/etc is stupid etc, but they can certainly most likely get away with it.

I have seen a fair number of senior petty officers get a little too lax with JOs but far less from the chiefs. The khaki does wonders for military bearing and professionalism.... it's a distinct jump. Just like I would never yell at any subordinate, I would never tolerate being berated, insulted, or spoken to in a friendly, familiar manner... certainly not by a senior enlisted. If they do it (in public) it becomes open season for all who see it. They need to set the example. And you'll hear pretty quickly who are the good chiefs/LPOs and who are not... junior enlisted talk with a certain impunity in the spaces.... shutting up and listening is a college education sometimes.

Point is, always be professional and courteous and you'll NEVER be wrong in correcting those who aren't. And if/when you DO correct them, again, do so professionally.

Maybe it's different on Papa Threes, but there's a lot more blurring of the lines amongst the air crew. Things are still professional as far as who's in charge, but I don't think I've ever used Petty Officer -----, set 4600 shaft horsepower. It's usually more like "hey grabass, set forty six hundo for me when you're done shooting the shit on ICS." Nicknames and callsigns work on the plane, and as long as they don't interfere with professionalism in the spaces I don't think there's a problem with a crew being close. The problems come up when people who may know more than you do about x, y, or z think that their technical expertise overrides your positional authority. You'd be a dumbass not to listen to their advice about the things they know, but the minute they cross into your area it's time to drop the hammer, and the other O's should back you on it.

 

[BigRed389]

Nobody should get to the fleet with that butterbar unsurety that so many talk about. That's why I still can't comprehend how SWOs go straight from commissioning source to ship with no kind of schooling at all, if not for the skills, for the transition. Many are going to say it doesn't matter and that it works, but I think some of the arguments in this thread are a result of going straight from university or OCS to boat. That's throwing the new O-1 to the wolves and setting them up in a very weak position.

Throwing them to the wolves...maybe that's where the SWOs eat their young rep comes from.

It is a pretty shitty situation, with other communities, the education and training is provided by people senior to you, or at least in a classroom environment with clear instructor/student boundaries.

Onboard a ship, a DivO will learn how to conduct his daily responsibilities from the enlisted troops that work for them.
Theoretically, the Department Heads or more senior DivOs will take some time out during the day to teach the new DivOs, but that's a whole 'nother issue.

Having a clue does a lot to improve positional authority. I've gone TAD to augment staffs in a specific warfare area. Knowing the subject matter helps establish respect, and lets you be an effective leader.

I think the current SWO argument is that they don't have a practical means of providing that day to day training before arriving on the ship.

 

[BigRed389]

Yes, you can. It doesn't fucking matter that he's got three days of experience as a butter bar. He's a fucking commissioned officer. I personally think that's the biggest fucking problem with the Navy, they've over-empowered their senior enlisted. So much so that it's to the point that a junior officer is subordinate to a Chief.

Perfect example - my last deployment, they were anal retentive about blue-green hours in the gym, and a company XO was told he had to leave (even though he wasn't using equipment, and was only doing post-workout stretching on the outskirts of the gym). Later in the deployment, he went to the gym during green hours to work out and all the treadmills were occupied. One of them was occupied by a Chief. He tried to approach it diplomatically, until the Chief looked at him and said "I'm a Chief, I don't have to listen to you." It got ugly and the Chief got a charge sheet written on him for disrespect. It got sweeped under the rug by the ship's XO, because it was a Chief. Un-fucking-sat.

Oh, and this wasn't some first-tour, still learning the ropes officer. This was a former platoon commander who was in the battle for Fallujah.

Completely fucking unsat, but I agree with you.

I've also seen a number of examples at sea of senior NCO's publicly backtalking (not just disagreements...I'm talking completely unprofessional profanity) the XO, Department Heads...
Even though the XO/DHs were wrong, it was poorly handled.

And yes, no disciplinary actions taken.