Mumbai Attacks

[Brett327]

Hardly. Radical Islamic terrorism has been going on for fifty plus years.

You cannot logically deny that violence is inherent to Islam. You can debate the percentage of people that will actively participate, but the violence IS ingrained in the religion.

And not just because of Israel and the U.S. involvement in Iraq. Malaysia and Thailand point that out.

Is that so? Can you logically prove that to me? And let's not do this by cherry-picking scripture from the Quran, as I can get the same effect by cherry-picking from the Torrah or the New Testament, and then where would your argument be? Secondly, the whole issue of Israel is a political one, not religious - big difference.

Ready, go!

Brett

 

[Redux]

Sure looks like a respectable source!

You got me, I made it up http://209.157.64.200/focus/f-news/2138628/posts
so did he http://www.daylife.com/article/0daOcgkeTe8xS and he http://europenews.dk/en/node/16531

Google is your friend.

 

[OUSOONER]

You got me, I made it up http://209.157.64.200/focus/f-news/2138628/posts
so did he http://www.daylife.com/article/0daOcgkeTe8xS and he http://europenews.dk/en/node/16531

Google is your friend.

How funny..... I used your google-fu advice..and decided to do transpose the religions and just typed "christians attack muslims" and guess what?!?! Some arbitrary CHRISTIAN site (about as credible as your sources) popped up in front of my eyes..Without much research, I just clicked the first one that came up.

Read the first paragraph.

http://www.thinkchristian.net/index.php/2006/02/25/christians-attack-muslims/

Point is...you can find anything online to spin your argument. I'm sure somewhere in the depths of the internet, I can find a page that says flying remote control dildo's piloted by Gary Coleman are what actually crashed into the World Trade Center. Of course..they were not battery powered, they were powered by the hopes and dreams of all Muslim's...and baby farts.


EDIT: - Thought I'd throw in one more site "confirming" this atrocity..just for credibility sake http://sweetness-light.com/archive/nigerian-christians-strike-back-at-moslems

 

[PropStop]

Is that so? Can you logically prove that to me? And let's not do this by cherry-picking scripture from the Quran, as I can get the same effect by cherry-picking from the Torrah or the New Testament, and then where would your argument be? Secondly, the whole issue of Israel is a political one, not religious - big difference.

Ready, go!

Brett

Sigh... Brett, do you HAVE to come stir the pot? Can't you just urinate on a guy's lawn and call it good?

 

[Brett327]

Sigh... Brett, do you HAVE to come stir the pot? Can't you just urinate on a guy's lawn and call it good?

I'm just trying (probably in vain) to inject some sense into this discussion. The shrill hysteria of some of the posters is really disappointing, especially from those with wings on their chest and an assumed understanding of critical thinking. I guess some people just see what they want to see.

Brett

 

[exhelodrvr]

Is that so? Can you logically prove that to me? And let's not do this by cherry-picking scripture from the Quran, as I can get the same effect by cherry-picking from the Torrah or the New Testament, and then where would your argument be? Secondly, the whole issue of Israel is a political one, not religious - big difference.

Ready, go!

Brett

The issue of Israel is much less political than religious. You would see that if you would take a look at the historically anti-Jewish actions of Islam, and at the current statements of non-Middle Eastern Muslim leadership.

Can I prove it to you? Yes - look at the actions and the words of Muslim religious and political leadership. Look at what happens to Muslims/former Muslims who do speak out.

 

[Brett327]

The issue of Israel is much less political than religious. You would see that if you would take a look at the historically anti-Jewish actions of Islam, and at the current statements of non-Middle Eastern Muslim leadership.

Can I prove it to you? Yes - look at the actions and the words of Muslim religious and political leadership. Look at what happens to Muslims/former Muslims who do speak out.

If you're asserting that since there are Muslims who are violent, or that there are religious leaders who support the overthrow of Israel, that Islam is inherently violent, then you logically have to assign that label to Christianity as well, since those have also been traits of that religion. You can't escape this by saying that Christianity is (for the most part) no longer violent, because that would imply a transitory nature to the violence, thus eliminating it as an inherent trait. Either way, logically, you lose.

Since your understanding and historical knowledges of the region are clearly lacking, and since you've probably never bothered to crack a book on the subject, it might surprise you to know that Jews and Muslims lived in Jerusalem (under Muslim control, no less) for several hundred years in peace and mutual respect. There's nothing inherently in conflict between their theologies. If you don't think the Arab-Israeli problem is a political one, then you need to read up on your history, as well as your logic (so it would seem).

Brett

 

[Bevo16]

The shrill hysteria of some of the posters is really disappointing, especially from those with wings on their chest and an assumed understanding of critical thinking.

Well, at least you are doing your part to uphold the egomaniacal stereotype of those with wings on their chest.

Nobody is engaging in critical thinking unless they agree WITH ME!! I am the sole authority of all that is correct for Naval Aviators to think. How dare you not see my genius. You must be lazy and not read all of the things I have read. I am to smart for you. [/paraphrase]

:icon_tong

Funny stuff Brett. Thanks.

 

[eddie]

Since your understanding and historical knowledges of the region are clearly lacking, and since you've probably never bothered to crack a book on the subject, it might surprise you to know that Jews and Muslims lived in Jerusalem (under Muslim control, no less) for several hundred years in peace and mutual respect. There's nothing inherently in conflict between their theologies. If you don't think the Arab-Israeli problem is a political one, then you need to read up on your history, as well as your logic (so it would seem).

One has to love the colonial withdrawl of the British and general incompetence of the French. Wherever they went, they carved up chunks from more or less functional and sensible empires. In their wake they have left poverty, war, terrorism, and radicalism, whichever flavor of Asia / Africa you choose. The natives did not get along perfectly, but generally much better than they do now. "They've been killing each other for centuries," is generally a weak argument more true of Biblical times than of the past two millenia.

We, the United States, of course, being the only ones willing and able after a century of fascism and communism, must pick up the pieces.

Religions or all kinds exist together peacefully throughout history; especially ones "at war" today. Economic prosperity correlates best with peaceable religions in proximity to one another. If things are going to truly get as bad as some people say they are WRT to cash, then stand by for a miserable next quarter century.

 

[Brett327]

Well, at least you are doing your part to uphold the egomaniacal stereotype of those with wings on their chest.



:icon_tong

Funny stuff Brett. Thanks.

Is this a real argument this time, or are you being retroactively sarcastic again?

Brett

 

[exhelodrvr]

If you're asserting that since there are Muslims who are violent, or that there are religious leaders who support the overthrow of Israel, that Islam is inherently violent, then you logically have to assign that label to Christianity as well, since those have also been traits of that religion. You can't escape this by saying that Christianity is (for the most part) no longer violent, because that would imply a transitory nature to the violence, thus eliminating it as an inherent trait. Either way, logically, you lose.

Since your understanding and historical knowledges of the region are clearly lacking, and since you've probably never bothered to crack a book on the subject, it might surprise you to know that Jews and Muslims lived in Jerusalem (under Muslim control, no less) for several hundred years in peace and mutual respect. There's nothing inherently in conflict between their theologies. If you don't think the Arab-Israeli problem is a political one, then you need to read up on your history, as well as your logic (so it would seem).

Brett

"There's nothing inherently in conflict between their theologies. "
Do a little more research.

"under Muslim control, no less"
You're making my arguments for me. Thanks. I'll bet you were great on that high school debate team.

" label to Christianity as well, since those have also been traits of that religion"
That argument could have been made in the past. Not anymore.

"eliminating it as an inherent trait"
So you are saying that entities can't change over time? That something that was once inherent to an entity must always be?

So, how safe is it for an apostate Muslim to live in a Muslim country?

 

[Brett327]

"There's nothing inherently in conflict between their theologies. "
Do a little more research.

1. "under Muslim control, no less"
You're making my arguments for me. Thanks. I'll bet you were great on that high school debate team.

2. " label to Christianity as well, since those have also been traits of that religion"
That argument could have been made in the past. Not anymore.

3. "eliminating it as an inherent trait"
So you are saying that entities can't change over time? That something that was once inherent to an entity must always be?

4. So, how safe is it for an apostate Muslim to live in a Muslim country?

You can lead a horse to water, but...

Point by point, if I must:

1. Control does not equal violence. Isn't this what we're talking about? The Democrats control the Senate. Is that inherently violent? How did these guys coexist all those years if the religion that was in political control of Jerusalem was inherently violent towards the minority? If that was true, then the Muslims would have systematically exterminated the Jews, yet somehow they survived, in peace, no less? How can this be? (hint: your argument is flawed)

2&3. Actually, yes. Something that is a permanent and essential element of a thing. That is the definition of inherent. Did you fully understand the terms you chose to use? So, if Islam (or Christianity) is inherently violent, it necessarily has always been so and can never not be so, else it ceases to exist. Your choice of words, not mine.

4. Well, that depends on which Muslim country you're talking about. I'm sure one would do just fine in Indonesia (largest Muslim country), or Algeria, Morocco, or a host of others, while in Iran or Saudi Arabia, they might have some problems. Just goes to show you that Islam is not the monolythic entity you make it out to be. There are parts of THIS country where I would be harmed for telling people I was an atheist. What does that say about Christianity, using your standard?

What else you got? :sleep_125

Brett

 

[Redux]

How funny..... I used your google-fu advice..and decided to do transpose the religions and just typed "christians attack muslims" and guess what?!?! Some arbitrary CHRISTIAN site (about as credible as your sources) popped up in front of my eyes..Without much research, I just clicked the first one that came up.

Read the first paragraph.

http://www.thinkchristian.net/index.php/2006/02/25/christians-attack-muslims/

Point is...you can find anything online to spin your argument. I'm sure somewhere in the depths of the internet, I can find a page that says flying remote control dildo's piloted by Gary Coleman are what actually crashed into the World Trade Center. Of course..they were not battery powered, they were powered by the hopes and dreams of all Muslim's...and baby farts.


EDIT: - Thought I'd throw in one more site "confirming" this atrocity..just for credibility sake http://sweetness-light.com/archive/nigerian-christians-strike-back-at-moslems

Damn, something from nearly a year ago in Nigeria for revenge, you got me. Point is wherever there is strife, muslims always seem to be involved. I think they take their prick prophets philosophy just a tad far. Just ask the Danes that host them.

 

[A4sForever]

I've always been of the opinion that RELIGION (or the "excuse" of religion) has been the cause of more death & destruction throughout history than any other single entity ... then comes the U.S. State Department ...

I quit going to church a long time ago because of "religion". Churches have business addresses. Denominations are usually the result of a "reaction" to someone's teachings.

"Religion", for me, is a business ... not a spiritual place ..

It's probably too early for such heady thoughts ...

 

[Flash]

What kinds of things get Muslims in the streets, gets them fired up enough to protest and say, "THIS IS TOTAL BS!" Well, it isn't terrorism. But, OH MY GOD, should disrespect Mohammad, STAND THE HELL BY! We're gonna protest, kill a few nuns, burn some embassies. Yeah, real peaceful religion. This is the kind of crap children engage in (in terms of pettiness). Time to pull up the big kid pants and act like FUCKING ADULTS!

Good point, the ISLAMIC governments certainly don't do much to help the situation. Yes, not all of them are bad, some are quite good - Jordan.

A large part of the reason that you see protests like that is because that is only protests that the authoritarian governments where most of them took place allow. There is a lot of pent up anger in most of those countries, where there is little opportunity and even less prosperity. With youthful and rapidly growing populations many people have a desperate need for an outlet, and religion is one of the few 'acceptable' outlets in most of those places. Nationalism failed them a generation ago and now many have turned to religion as a way forward. It may may or may not 'work' for them, and in a generation there might be something totally different that appeals to them.

And there are very few 'Islamic' governments. Syria, which is secular, was the site of some of the most violent protests agains the Danish cartoons. And they one of the biggest supporters of 'Islamic' terrorist groups, out of self interest and not out of some 'Islamic' solidarity.

As for growing up, you can say the same for people who riot after the win or loss of their favorite sports team, how many times has that happened even in 'developed' countries like Europe and the US? Does it make sense to ransack and burn your own city 'celebrating' a sports team victory? Not so far removed now are we?