-
Please take a moment and update your account profile. If you have an updated account profile with basic information on why you are on Air Warriors it will help other people respond to your posts. How do you update your profile you ask?
Go here:
Edit Account Details and Profile
Naval F-16 A/B??
- Thread starter Sundown
- Start date
B
Blutonski816
Guest
SteveG75 said:
Hell yeah, dude. Can't say enough about the IAF guys...
I wonder if a4s might have any stories worth sharing...
skidkid said:
It was a few years ago, maybe 5 or 7, but an F/A-18 squadron flew against the Israeli's in an exercise. The Navy squadron was spanked pretty hard, the 'kill' ratio was something like 26 to 1. The Israeli's arguably are man for man (or woman now) the best fighter pioots in the world. To be a fighter pilot in Israel is one of the prestigous and well regarded things to do in their whole society (one in which every able body man and woman serves), much more than in the US.
The problem with the IAF is that they do not have a very deep pool of fighter pilots like the US. While they can stay in the reserves until 60 (their highest ranking ace, Giora Epstein, with 17 kills sat alert in F-16's until he was 60 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giora_Epstein http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3897/is_200310/ai_n9342006) they don't have a whole lot of fighter pilots unlike the US. Think of all those guys in staff or shore tours, that is a huge pool of guys to call on in time of war to replenish front line units if necessary. Most Israeli fighter pilots serve their time in a squadron and go into the reserves without ever doing a shore tour. They actually do not have to go to college and can start right out of secondary school, as young as 18.
In the Navy, it's Adversary ... not Aggressor (unless that's changed, too:sleep_125 ). The IAF Israelis are very good, no doubt about that, but so are our F-16's. The "Lawn Dart" represented the toughest fights I ever had when flying Adversary --- if it was flown properly --- even when flown by Air Force weenies and Pakistanis. Ironically, the IAF selects, culls, and trains their pilot much like the Luftwaffe did in the 30's ... i.e., identify the prospective pilots early as Flash pointed out. They start off with "flying clubs" and the prospective IAF selectees "live and breathe" flying from, basically, their middle to late teenage years.
When some of the IAF guys were getting trained and taking delivery of their (our) A-4s (they called the Skyhawk "AHIT" -- means "Vulture"), they were scoring over 80% hits on the strafing targets at the range. When asked "how do you it??" ... they replied something to the effect of: "we don't start shooting until we cross the foul line --- unlike you who are "off safe" when you cross the foul line." We adjusted our parameters, and guess what? 75-80% hits on target. The IAF pilots also allowed that every flight they launched on over Israel -- even so-called "training flights" -- was accomplished with a combat load in case the balloon went up. I don't know if that is the case today, but it used to be ....
When some of the IAF guys were getting trained and taking delivery of their (our) A-4s (they called the Skyhawk "AHIT" -- means "Vulture"), they were scoring over 80% hits on the strafing targets at the range. When asked "how do you it??" ... they replied something to the effect of: "we don't start shooting until we cross the foul line --- unlike you who are "off safe" when you cross the foul line." We adjusted our parameters, and guess what? 75-80% hits on target. The IAF pilots also allowed that every flight they launched on over Israel -- even so-called "training flights" -- was accomplished with a combat load in case the balloon went up. I don't know if that is the case today, but it used to be ....
Thank you. I'm glad we're back to making ridiculous blanket statements about things like this - reminiscent of the F-14 vs F-18, and the ubiquitous "my dad can kick your dad's @ss" debates. Yes the IAF has some great gear and fields some well trained (and experienced) aircrews, but how exactly did we deduce that they are the "greatest ever?" Citing an "excercise" where they "won" over whatever other nation's fighters is completely pointless - you should know beter, Flash. Nobody knows the relevant details of any such excercise, nor would they be postable/debateable on this forum. We do this to ourselves all the time - "Oh yeah? Well, I heard that the US Superhornet got schwacked by some Indian Migs! See, it says so in this excercise! Ah Ha! The US military is inferior! US hegemony is in decline!" Can we please, please, PLEASE stop doing this?skidkid said:
Brett (my dad CAN kick your dad's @ss!)
We have a former Isreali F-15 pilot at Hawaiian. He has a couple of kills to his credit and is now a U.S. citizen. He left Isreal because he decided it was too dangerous a place to raise kids. He started in their application process/training pipeline when he was 14.
After he got his U.S. citizenship, he applied to the Hawaii Air Guard to fly their F-15s. He was turned down since he was not a rated USAF pilot - too expensive to train they said.
After he got his U.S. citizenship, he applied to the Hawaii Air Guard to fly their F-15s. He was turned down since he was not a rated USAF pilot - too expensive to train they said.
It figures .... as the HANG F-15 outfit has some of the dumbest and weakest F-15 drivers I have ever witnessed. Lots of them, in fact. They were forced into a month-long safety/operational standdown 3 years ago for gross incompetence and dereliction in procedures, training, tactics, maintenance, and leadership. Gee .... comprehensively incompetent. I guess that about sums it up.HAL Pilot said:
Or perhaps your Israeli F-15 driver was just a little too much competition for them ..... ???
Oy ve!!
Brett327 said:Thank you. I'm glad we're back to making ridiculous blanket statements about things like this - reminiscent of the F-14 vs F-18, and the ubiquitous "my dad can kick your dad's @ss" debates. Yes the IAF has some great gear and fields some well trained (and experienced) aircrews, but how exactly did we deduce that they are the "greatest ever?" Citing an "excercise" where they "won" over whatever other nation's fighters is completely pointless - you should know beter, Flash. Nobody knows the relevant details of any such excercise, nor would they be postable/debateable on this forum. We do this to ourselves all the time - "Oh yeah? Well, I heard that the US Superhornet got schwacked by some Indian Migs! See, it says so in this excercise! Ah Ha! The US military is inferior! US hegemony is in decline!" Can we please, please, PLEASE stop doing this?
Brett (my dad CAN kick your dad's @ss!)
I do know better, usually. What I actually said was "The Israeli's arguably are man for man (or woman now) the best fighter [pilots] in the world." While it is a moot point to argue about it, especially since I really don't see the Israeli's ever going up against anyone who has pretty decent pilots (NATO/US etc.), it is still interesting to debate it. While comparing 'scores' in excercises is a littel juvenile, especially when politics can come into play during the excercises, I distincly remember reading about the disappointment in the outcome of that particular excercise in a professional journal a few years ago (Proceedings?), I looked for and could not find anything on hte internet about it.
As has been pointed out, Israel trains their pilots completely differently than the US and most Western nations. Additionally, thier job is to fly and not much else. Their career path is much different than the US, one of the recent IAF commanders left the service after his initial commitment for 6 or 7 years before rejoining the service. Could you see anyone in the US military making itto the top after taking that much time off?
Would the Israeli model work here? I don't think so, they have a small number of planes and pilots to call on, and then a few reservists. We on the other hand have a huge pool of planes and pilots to call on. Different solutions to different problems, apples and oranges. In the end, if we stopped giving them F-16's and F-15's or funding whatever science projects they cook up (they are the largest reciepients of US foriegn aid when you include our military aid to them), they would probably end up speaking Arabic pretty quickly.