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NCR Parade Rumint

Brett327

Well-Known Member
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
How about the optics of spending millions of dollars every year on service vanity projects like the Blue Angles and others
If you are suggesting that the Blues are a vanity project for the President, then I'd tell you that you're wrong. That's what we're talking about here... vanity for exactly one person that lives in the Whitehouse. If you're downplaying the recruiting value of the Blue Angels, I'd say that you're 80% wrong. To be clear, I'm not a cost-cutting proponent in this context, but I would like those who claim to be to at least be consistent.

That is what's going on in this discussion. Can you at least muster the intellectual honesty to acknowledge the hypocrisy?
 

MIDNJAC

is clara ship
pilot
Fun fact, I imagine most of you are not familiar with what is going on with the CNAFR (that's flying reserves) budget this FY. It's the worst I've seen in over 5 years doing this reservist thing (spanning parts of the most recent 3 administrations).....an enormous departure from 4 other pretty consistent years. I'm told it is the worst fiscal situation that has happened in over a decade. 70% cut to our drill budget, and 2 weeks into Q3 and we still don't have orders fund approved. I'd like to say that there will be fallout when we cannot support FRS (or VT or SFARP/AWF) det production, but I know that the big reserves don't care. And there is zero transparency among the leadership about where the money is going. The "well we are in a CR" excuse doesn't pass the stink check. We've been in a near continuous CR since I was a LT. I'd buy that we are taking the brunt of the White House mandated 8% force cuts, or the money is being diverted to Guard border security ops. Would be nice if someone, anyone even, would just say it though.
 
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Griz882

Frightening children with the Griz-O-Copter!
pilot
Contributor
If you are suggesting that the Blues are a vanity project for the President, then I'd tell you that you're wrong. That's what we're talking about here... vanity for exactly one person that lives in the Whitehouse. If you're downplaying the recruiting value of the Blue Angels, I'd say that you're 80% wrong. To be clear, I'm not a cost-cutting proponent in this context, but I would like those who claim to be to at least be consistent.

That is what's going on in this discussion. Can you at least muster the intellectual honesty to acknowledge the hypocrisy?
I have not come close to suggesting that the Blues are a POTUS vanity project, but you have clearly said this parade is. This parade was in the books before the first vote in the 2024. As planned it is a parade to celebrate the 250th Anniversary of the U.S. Army - and right now no tanks or similar heavy tracked vehicles are involved but some kind of a fly over is. Like you, I am not a cost cutting proponent but the real hypocrisy is weeping about the cost of this parade while ignoring that the military spends much more on internal “show” events like flight, parachute, mounted, and ceremonial drill teams. We can afford a parade. We can afford demonstration teams. We can afford each of the 35 plus events planned in DC alone for the 250th (all while Trump is POTUS). More importantly, we should be able to enjoy them without getting wrapped up in pathetic partisan dart throwing.

Oh, by the way, the homes team is in on this as well.
 
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sevenhelmet

Quaint ideas from yesteryear
pilot
Fun fact, I imagine most of you are not familiar with what is going on with the CNAFR (that's flying reserves) budget this FY. It's the worst I've seen in over 5 years doing this reservist thing (spanning parts of the most recent 3 administrations).....an enormous departure from 4 other pretty consistent years. I'm told it is the worst fiscal situation that has happened in over a decade. 70% cut to our drill budget, and 2 weeks into Q3 and we still don't have orders fund approved. I'd like to say that there will be fallout when we cannot support FRS (or VT or SFARP/AWF) det production, but I know that the big reserves don't care. And there is zero transparency among the leadership about where the money is going. The "well we are in a CR" excuse doesn't pass the stink check. We've been in a near continuous CR since I was a LT. I'd buy that we are taking the brunt of the White House mandated 8% force cuts, or the money is being diverted to Guard border security ops. Would be nice if someone, anyone even, would just say it though.

More and more, I think I picked the right year to retire my military career. Just hope the USG is still solvent enough to cover military retirement pensions when I am over 60.
 

pilot_man

Ex-Rhino driver
pilot
Let me tell you a quick story that summarizes Trump's Presidencies. When I was in Japan he decided he was going to visit Tokyo. That means flying AF1 into Yokota and then taking a vert lift into downtown. His staff said they would only fly in an Osprey and wouldn't take no for an answer. It took the 3 star showing his staff a video of the destruction that can be caused by the MV-22's downwash and what that would do to Hardy Barracks and the buildings in downtown Tokyo. They then showed up and said the 80 foot US flag wasn't good enough and replaced it with another 80 foot flag.

The man is vain.
 

sevenhelmet

Quaint ideas from yesteryear
pilot

Imagine being so thin-skinned that you need an entire Naval ship to be hidden from view, in order to not be reminded of someone who challenged you.

What a relief that DJT has figured out, in his second term, how to surround himself with an echo chamber for his ideas such that they need never be questioned. The best leaders should never need anyone else’s input.

Where do we find such men? :rolleyes:
 

Brett327

Well-Known Member
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
I have not come close to suggesting that the Blues are a POTUS vanity project, but you have clearly said this parade is. This parade was in the books before the first vote in the 2024. As planned it is a parade to celebrate the 250th Anniversary of the U.S. Army - and right now no tanks or similar heavy tracked vehicles are involved but some kind of a fly over is. Like you, I am not a cost cutting proponent but the real hypocrisy is weeping about the cost of this parade while ignoring that the military spends much more on internal “show” events like flight, parachute, mounted, and ceremonial drill teams. We can afford a parade. We can afford demonstration teams. We can afford each of the 35 plus events planned in DC alone for the 250th (all while Trump is POTUS). More importantly, we should be able to enjoy them without getting wrapped up in pathetic partisan dart throwing.

Oh, by the way, the homes team is in on this as well.
Kind of astonishing how readily you ignore the point being discussed, while offering up the most facile straw man in defense, in bad faith. If you can’t even engage on a simple point, then what’s the point of discussing anything with you at all.
 

FinkUFreaky

Well-Known Member
pilot
Kind of astonishing how readily you ignore the point being discussed, while offering up the most facile straw man in defense, in bad faith. If you can’t even engage on a simple point, then what’s the point of discussing anything with you at all.
I dunno, Grizz seems like one of the few sane posters on this forum in the past couple months. Much of the rest have devolved into a hysterical echo chamber. But I’m certain your big words are correct and he committed a logical fallacy of some sort; why would anyone engage with scum like that?
 

Griz882

Frightening children with the Griz-O-Copter!
pilot
Contributor
Kind of astonishing how readily you ignore the point being discussed, while offering up the most facile straw man in defense, in bad faith. If you can’t even engage on a simple point, then what’s the point of discussing anything with you at all.
OK…the point being discussed is a set of people enjoying a whine fest over Trump being in the White House while assuming that a parade is planned for his self-glorification. I have no issue with that, people have their little takes on things. That, and that alone is the beginning and end of this particular thread - oh, and people justly complaining that parades really aren’t much fun for the participants- they have a point.

Trying to make this a “this is awfully expensive” argument from any armed forces officer is hollow bull shit. The military can find a way to buy penny candy for $20 without even trying so attempting to assume some moral high ground over cost is simply pathetic. Using the various military demonstration teams as a metric to deflect this approach is perfectly fine and you, dear Naval Post Graduate School graduate, know that for a fact. This is not a new argument…it was had in 2020 during the “American Strong” Flyover. Tiny minds wailed about the cost, but as the services noted in a joint statement announcing “America Strong,” the US Navy and Air Force called the flybys “critical training requirements” for both squadrons: “Pilots must execute a minimum number of flight hours to maintain proficiency. These flyovers will incur no additional cost to the tax payer.” Well, Brett, the shoe leather worn out by the poor souls assigned to this parade “will incur no additional cost to the tax payer” just as the highly expensive Fleet Week in Philly will not actually cost the tax payer more…since ships and sailors move around anyway.

Next up…the “optics” of “slashing vital programs and firing thousands of mission essential federal workers.” Let’s see…in the years I worked for Uncle Sam in one way or another (military and federal employee) I watched Reagan cut over 100,000 federal positions, Bush ‘41 host a major reduction in force in the military (about 400,000 service members) and Clinton continued the trend dropping the Navy from 454 ships to 341 (mostly by allowing older ships to retire and not building new ones) - oh, and Mr. Clinton also RIF’d some 400,000 civilian federal employees. Bush ‘43 more or less left everyone alone, nut Mr. Obama followed up with a “soft-RIF” by freezing federal pay for three years while shrinking ranks via a long-term hiring freeze. During his first term I recall Trump RIFing a small number of people and also hosting a hiring freeze. Save your crocodile tears for people who remember beyond last month. Still, it is worth noting that every one of those administrations had parades, major events, and even cool singers perform at the White House so they did, in fact, “have it both ways!” Oh wait, I forgot, using historical facts in a debate is, to contemporary naval officers, a “straw man,” my apologies. 🤣

Let me know if I missed anything Brett, I’ll be happy to support my argument, even if you need to fall back on your pseudo-academic tropes in response.
 

ea6bflyr

Working Class Bum
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
OK…the point being discussed is a set of people enjoying a whine fest over Trump being in the White House while assuming that a parade is planned for his self-glorification. I have no issue with that, people have their little takes on things. That, and that alone is the beginning and end of this particular thread - oh, and people justly complaining that parades really aren’t much fun for the participants- they have a point.

Trying to make this a “this is awfully expensive” argument from any armed forces officer is hollow bull shit. The military can find a way to buy penny candy for $20 without even trying so attempting to assume some moral high ground over cost is simply pathetic. Using the various military demonstration teams as a metric to deflect this approach is perfectly fine and you, dear Naval Post Graduate School graduate, know that for a fact. This is not a new argument…it was had in 2020 during the “American Strong” Flyover. Tiny minds wailed about the cost, but as the services noted in a joint statement announcing “America Strong,” the US Navy and Air Force called the flybys “critical training requirements” for both squadrons: “Pilots must execute a minimum number of flight hours to maintain proficiency. These flyovers will incur no additional cost to the tax payer.” Well, Brett, the shoe leather worn out by the poor souls assigned to this parade “will incur no additional cost to the tax payer” just as the highly expensive Fleet Week in Philly will not actually cost the tax payer more…since ships and sailors move around anyway.

Next up…the “optics” of “slashing vital programs and firing thousands of mission essential federal workers.” Let’s see…in the years I worked for Uncle Sam in one way or another (military and federal employee) I watched Reagan cut over 100,000 federal positions, Bush ‘41 host a major reduction in force in the military (about 400,000 service members) and Clinton continued the trend dropping the Navy from 454 ships to 341 (mostly by allowing older ships to retire and not building new ones) - oh, and Mr. Clinton also RIF’d some 400,000 civilian federal employees. Bush ‘43 more or less left everyone alone, nut Mr. Obama followed up with a “soft-RIF” by freezing federal pay for three years while shrinking ranks via a long-term hiring freeze. During his first term I recall Trump RIFing a small number of people and also hosting a hiring freeze. Save your crocodile tears for people who remember beyond last month. Still, it is worth noting that every one of those administrations had parades, major events, and even cool singers perform at the White House so they did, in fact, “have it both ways!” Oh wait, I forgot, using historical facts in a debate is, to contemporary naval officers, a “straw man,” my apologies. 🤣

Let me know if I missed anything Brett, I’ll be happy to support my argument, even if you need to fall back on your pseudo-academic tropes in response.
@Griz882 I understand your point, but you are discounting the estimated $21 Million taxpayer bill for DC public safety. Is the Army going to be in the Washington Square celebrating their 250 year anniversary? Yes. Should the Army conduct a parade? IMHO, no. The parade is an un-needed additional expense to the taxpayers.

I do not care one way or another, but the POTUS "saving money" by firing people (RIF...NBD, it's been done before), freezing all government travel, then to piss all the savings away on a $100 Million parade is ludicrous (2018 estimate was $92 million...settling for a $5.2 Million fly-over).

As a taxpayer, I am concerned with how the government spends my money. Aren't you?
 

Griz882

Frightening children with the Griz-O-Copter!
pilot
Contributor
@Griz882 I understand your point, but you are discounting the estimated $21 Million taxpayer bill for DC public safety. Is the Army going to be in the Washington Square celebrating their 250 year anniversary? Yes. Should the Army conduct a parade? IMHO, no. The parade is an un-needed additional expense to the taxpayers.

I do not care one way or another, but the POTUS "saving money" by firing people (RIF...NBD, it's been done before), freezing all government travel, then to piss all the savings away on a $100 Million parade is ludicrous (2018 estimate was $92 million...settling for a $5.2 Million fly-over).

As a taxpayer, I am concerned with how the government spends my money. Aren't you?
I see your point. I could be mistaken, but is that amount assuming heavy, raid damaging vehicles are used? I know DC gets hit with a lot of shit bills for events that are only held in D.C.

As a tax payer I am concerned. As I noted earlier I’m not a crazed fiscal slasher looking for every penny but I have to ask if DoD is strapped for funds to conduct real-world missions and highly necessary training events then why aren’t they looking to cut out fat like flight demonstration teams or (heaven forbid) history and heritage programs? I got the answer, or an answer, at a meeting with Mark Esper when I was part of a group defending various small programs within DoD. He noted that cutting the things that pull civilians toward the military isn’t wise, and more importantly the money saved wouldn’t cover much in terms of training or exercises.

That said, if it goes as planned (not a Trumpian military power show, but just a parade to celebrate the Army birthday) then I’m good with that just as I think the pending 250th Fleet Week type event planned for Philly is a positive good for the Navy and Marines.
 
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