Need some advice on how to go into Navy Aviation from abroad

[Freddy]

Hi,

I'm Fred.

Another guy who wants to fly in the Navy, and I feel like I need some help.


Background:
I'm currently studying in London, I'm a US citizen that grew up here. If I seem to talk about the UK with distaste it's because I love America but we never had the finance to back any visits, untill last year when my Uncles got some frequent flier miles together. etc...
I'm just about to finish my 1st year of Aeronautical Engineering at Imperial College London. This year I applied to transfer to Purdue as It's supposed to be pretty good at Aerospace. I got into Purdue however the cost is just too much so I cannot attend. I was planning on doing BDCP or NROTC but now those both seem impossible.

In the US a bachelors is typically 4 years, with a masters being + 2 years on that.
Here its 3 years for a bachelors (depepending on the degree) + 1 for a masters (typically).
The reason for this is that in the UK, the first year of engineering (math/physics/chemistry) is generally covered in the year prior to college. (If you pick the right subjects, most people do not cover first year engineering topics)
Also in the US the engineering hrs of lectures/week comes to around 15 (average) from what I hear. Whereas right now I'm doing 22.
However US univerities do longer terms.
My point is the time scales are different, but I beleive the quality is the same.
So it's not because my degree is crap ( as 3 to 4 years may make it seem )


Questions:
Reading around I've seen that the board of selectors look at things like GPA, understandably, for selecting pilots. However over here I don't beleive they use GPAs as a 4.0 / 3.0. They have "First / 2.1 / 2.2 " which is equivalent of A / B / C. Do you think there will be much confusion in this matter?

Another thing is I finish in 2 years with a Bachelors or + 1 to that to make a Masters. Currently my objective is to get the hell out of this country so I'd rather take my bachelors and get out fast. Will a Masters benefit me in the Navy?
My understanding of a Masters: I was talking to my aircraft performance lecturer who went to MIT for his Bachelors and MSc ( both in Aero+Astronautical Eng) so I told him I'm thinking of doing a MSc at ,for example, MIT - if I stop at a bachelors here. He basically said its never a good idea to do a Masters unless someone is paying for it, as the only reason to get a masters is to back a PhD. Usually If you do a PhD (sponsored by a company or someone else ) they will pay for you to do a Masters (leading me to beleive that my masters wouldn't be that different from a Bachelors).

My degree title is Masters in Engineering, or MEng. or BEng for bachelors. Generally the US titles engineering degrees as BSc's or BSc In Engineering. I think I have seen MIT and some other colleges use the MEng title though. Do you think this is a big deal? BEng v.s. BSc? I know boeing and NASA employ plenty of people from around the world so I'm hoping something like this won't be an issue.

As I've just had my fantasy of transferring to Purdue smashed NROTC is probably not an option. Neither I think is BDCP, unless I can do it abroad ( can I ? )
So right now I'm looking at OCS. I'm not exactly scared of it as my mom and 3 of my uncles went through it. What worries me though is getting a pilot slot. I've heard that Annapolis get the most followed by NROTC, followed by OCS and BDCP. But the OCS selection is supposed to be pretty small. Is this true? Also what kind of competition rate am I looking at? Whats the application:selection ratio?

Do you think I should reapply next year, but also apply for the NROTC scholarship, just to get into NROTC?

If I don't get picked for pilot first time, aren't there other fields I can choose in which I could transfer to pilotting from? Like NFO ( are there others? )

Does anyone know where I can find some statistics for stuff like applications:selections for flight school, jets , helos, for OCS vs. NROTC.

Does coming from a place like MIT help? And would a navy recruiter know about Imperial (regarded as one of the best engineering schools in europe and the world, especially for aero - but isnt in the US.)





Anyway some of my questions may seem pretty basic, but at the moment I've just taken a step backward from what I envision as my future which makes everything seem more far away.

Thanks for reading / answering.

Fred

 

[AlexSmart]

Dude, don't worry so much about statistics, what the "percentages" are, or how competitive the applicant pool is. Just put together the best package you possibly can. If you do not get selected the first time, then improve your grades, ASTB scores, and letters of rec and try again. Repeat until you get selected. That's what I plan on doing and all of the other stuff is just b.s. IMHO.

As far as BDCP overseas, there might be someone with gouge on that...

 

[jtmedli]

Dude, don't worry so much about statistics, what the "percentages" are, or how competitive the applicant pool is. Just put together the best package you possibly can. If you do not get selected the first time, then improve your grades, ASTB scores, and letters of rec and try again. Repeat until you get selected. That's what I plan on doing and all of the other stuff is just b.s. IMHO.

As far as BDCP overseas, there might be someone with gouge on that...

This is good advice. We're all underdogs so just do your best on everything and apply.

You can theoretically transfer from NFO and other career fields, but it's not easy and not likely. If you want SNA and will only be happy with SNA, then apply for that only. If you don't get it the first time, then you can reconsider applying for NFO.

 

[Ducky]

I was rejected the first time around for the NROTC scholarship. I showed up without a scholarship busted my ass and earned one after the first semester. Don't give up! I'm not sure what your financial situation is, but have you looked into financial aid? You may not be able to afford all four years, but maybe you could pull enough resources together to manage a year or two until you earn a scholarship. Whatever you do pick one direction and give it 100%. I've seen to many people give up/fail at their dreams because they ponder the gazillion possibilities of each path without ever taking the plunge.

 

[Freddy]

I was rejected the first time around for the NROTC scholarship. I showed up without a scholarship busted my ass and earned one after the first semester. Don't give up! I'm not sure what your financial situation is, but have you looked into financial aid? You may not be able to afford all four years, but maybe you could pull enough resources together to manage a year or two until you earn a scholarship. Whatever you do pick one direction and give it 100%. I've seen to many people give up/fail at their dreams because they ponder the gazillion possibilities of each path without ever taking the plunge.

Cost of attendance is 40,000. They've given 10 in grants, 10 in student loans and 20 in direct parent Plus loan. I've suggested trying for 1 year and doing all the others with scholarships like NROTC or BDCP, but my mom and my Uncle (Ret US Navy Capt.) are both against it. It's because our income is lower than 20. Also I'm at one of the best engineering schools in the world already, so they don't feel it's neccessary. It's hard to see things that way when you feel like your going backwards though, even though theres some truth in it.

Right now I'm just wondering if I should try to transfer next year, since I end in 2 years.

 

[ajalali]

i posted this quote last week, but its pretty good so i'm just gonna say it whenever it may apply from now on:

"stop trying to do, just do it"

you have a lot of questions, and thats understandable, but above all else you need to ask yourself if you want to be a naval officer, not a naval aviator.

Then, once you have that ironed out, take your astb.

Then, get your letters of recommendation together and write your motivational statement.

Then, after all that is done, put in your package, and in the following months board results watch how you stack up against other selects and non-selects.

Then, and then, and then, and then and then and then and then.

You know, if it sounds like i'm trying to stress the whole "one step at a time" thing, its 'cause i am. You're never gonna get to the next step until you finish the last one. Just get at it, and good luck.

 

[Ducky]

Freddy,

Engineering is a great subject and respected degree; however, it is not a requirement nor does it guarantee that you will be a Naval Aviator. I graduated with a degree in Mechanical Engineering, but have not used any of it in my Naval Career. It has helped with conceptual learning of aircraft systems and such, but did not do much else. If I went back to school I would get a degree more practical to life such as finance or business. Its just a much more well rounded degree.

I am not trying to discourage you from engineering, but if your priority is to become a Naval Aviator / Naval Officer you do not need to attend the most prestigeous engineering school to get there. A more middle of the road school that your family could comfortably afford until you get a scholarship might be the best bet. If you are looking for an American college, take the blinders off and explore more than just a few top name schools.

However, the best choice might be to finish school in London and then apply for OCS that way you don't deal with the whole mess of transferring, but you still have a shot at becoming a Naval Aviator.

In the end its your life! Do what you need to do to follow and achieve your dream.

 

[wink]

Fred,
As to your major, while what was said above is generally true I don't recommend changing majors to something easier or quicker just to get a degree. You will be in the navy for only part of your adult life and will have to be employed after. Get a degree in a filed you wish to work in. I would only offer the advice above to a high school kid not sure what to major in or someone busting his engineering studies.

The OCS board does know about foreign degrees and certainly the major universities in the west. You can be accepted with a degree from Imperial College. They know it is a very fine institution. Transferring to a US school just so you can walk onto a NROTC program and hope for a 3 or 2 year scholarship is a gamble. 2 and 3 year NROTC scholarships for walk ons (College Program guys) are very hard to get now. Most schools have just one or two to give, if any! Your mom is right, you are at a good school now. Stay the course. I am pretty sure BDCP is for US universities only. Affiliation with a local Recruiting District HQ is required. That is not possible in London. You can apply for OCS up to a year before graduating while at Imperial. Logistically it will be a hassle, but it is not impossible. If not selected before graduating, finish you degree, get a job in the US and move "home". Then just start the process over with a local recruiter.

Best of luck to you. I was a Reservist on the staff of CICUSNAVEUR and spent many days at the Audley Street headquarters off Bond Street. I worked with many ex pats in my Reserve unit. Some had been stationed in the UK and just stayed after they got off active duty.

 

[Ducky]

Fred,
As to your major, while what was said above is generally true I don't recommend changing majors to something easier or quicker just to get a degree. You will be in the navy for only part of your adult life and will have to be employed after. Get a degree in a filed you wish to work in. I would only offer the advice above to a high school kid not sure what to major in or someone busting his engineering studies.

The OCS board does know about foreign degrees and certainly the major universities in the west. You can be accepted with a degree from Imperial College. They know it is a very fine institution. Transferring to a US school just so you can walk onto a NROTC program and hope for a 3 or 2 year scholarship is a gamble. 2 and 3 year NROTC scholarships for walk ons (College Program guys) are very hard to get now. Most schools have just one or two to give, if any! Your mom is right, you are at a good school now. Stay the course. I am pretty sure BDCP is for US universities only. Affiliation with a local Recruiting District HQ is required. That is not possible in London. You can apply for OCS up to a year before graduating while at Imperial. Logistically it will be a hassle, but it is not impossible. If not selected before graduating, finish you degree, get a job in the US and move "home". Then just start the process over with a local recruiter.

Best of luck to you. I was a Reservist on the staff of CICUSNAVEUR and spent many days at the Audley Street headquarters off Bond Street. I worked with many ex pats in my Reserve unit. Some had been stationed in the UK and just stayed after they got off active duty.

Wink said it best. Best of Luck!

 

[HeyJoe]

I was a Reservist on the staff of CICUSNAVEUR and spent many days at the Audley Street headquarters off Bond Street.

I too have spent many hours on Audley Street....downing pints in the Audley Pub (got pictures of the comely Romanian barkeep somewhere). Later in evening I recommend the piano bar in the Hotel Millennium that faces the Eagle Squadron Memorial in front of the US Embassy.

 

[Freddy]

Wow, it's cool to see a few of you guys are around the UK.

 

[Freddy]

Logistically it will be a hassle, but it is not impossible.

Does this have anything to do with a state of legal residence? Because I don't beleive I have one at the moment.

Are there any other logistical problems I could sort out before I apply?

 

[wink]

Does this have anything to do with a state of legal residence? Because I don't beleive I have one at the moment.

Are there any other logistical problems I could sort out before I apply?

The real problem is support. You will be doing everything via email and phone calls. I am not even sure who you would work with. I am pretty sure there is a desk at CNRC (Navy Recruiting Command) that handles overseas applicants. You should start researching that now. Google is a wonderful thing. But then you will have to be set up with a physical at a US installation that will require authorization paperwork and you dealing with active duty folks that don't know how to deal with an OCS applicant and you not knowing how to deal with them. You will probably have to get an active duty officer to administer the physical fitness test. Maybe they will let a coach at the university do it. There are lots of places to sign paperwork that has to be witnessed by an officer or a civilian processor. No one ever gets the entire application done correctly the first time, so it helps to sit with the recruiter or processor if there is a mistake . You won't be able to do that. If you are selected, you will have to get an officer to swear you in and sign the papers. It will not be easy, but is possible. The best option is graduate, get a job in the US and walk down to the local officer recruiter and do this all in person. Near term, find out who handles overseas apps for CNRC.

 

[wink]

I too have spent many hours on Audley Street....downing pints in the Audley Pub (got pictures of the comely Romanian barkeep somewhere). Later in evening I recommend the piano bar in the Hotel Millennium that faces the Eagle Squadron Memorial in front of the US Embassy.

I know it was the best staff duty in the Reserves. I gathered that my active duty peers felt the same way. In N3 most every day we had officer's call/staff meetings sometime after lunch. You were expected to bring a beer to the meeting rather then pad and paper. Reservists had a desk and computer. We never did Reserve BS. You sat down and went to work right on real staff issues (current and contingency air ops in my case) When we left a few days later the active staff were genuinely sorry to see us go and made a note of when we would be back. Since we didn't wear uniforms you just rolled right to the pubs for the rest of the day when work was over. As a JO I never wanted to be a staff weenie, but the NAVEUR gig wasn't bad at all. I was there mid 90's when the Balkans occupied our time.

 

[NTXRockr]

Freddy, how are you paying for your tuition in England? I would assume that it's more expensive than here but you never know. If you can complete your degree over there in 3 years, then why not complete it and then apply directly for OCS when you are getting ready to graduate? A degree is a degree, as long as the Navy recognizes it as an equivalent to the U.S. bachelor's of science. Seems to me you have the degree you wanted, done in a year less, don't have to deal with the hassles of new curriculum/finances/extra year/changing majors, and that means possibly flying a year sooner. If you still think you need to come to the states for school, do what you want and can afford regardless of NROTC/BDCP, then apply while you're here and go from there.

Best advice...go to the Navy's website and either find the contact information for an international contact or click on the 'request information' link about Officer programs, which will ask for your location and info. They will email and direct you to who knows the answers or may even have a link or FAQ about this issue. Either way, eventually you'll need to speak with an Officer Recruiter about your situation. They'll be able to organize your application, help with the translation of your transcripts/GPA. Just remember, if it's what you want to do then don't give up - be persistent and you will find the answers that you need. Good luck!