New PRT?

[LazersGoPEWPEW]

I could roll with a 5k.

I am firmly against the idea of shuttle runs and I don't understand why that would be better than an endurance test anyways.

But if they really want sailors to get in shape they need to stop serving all that fattening food on the mess decks first.

 

[Uncle Fester]

Much as I hate buzzwords, I do agree with the 'culture of fitness' phrase that's been thrown around the last few years. Every command I've ever been in has tried a command fitness program which fell apart within a few months, mostly because the front office and/or chiefs' mess didn't support it. My first ship, the captain didn't even bother showing up to morning PT. When push comes to shove in a squadron, what's going to take precedence for Maint Control, getting a plane ready to fly or pushups? Add in day/night check schedules, workups, FCLP's until 0300, not to mention the Boat life...

Anyway, my point is, the Navy needs to get serious about supporting and encouraging fitness; you've got guys who aren't inclined to work out, and expecting them to self-motivate when nobody around them cares except twice a year isn't realistic or a recipe for success. Either that, or just give up and admit that the Navy as a whole isn't a service that requires athletic ability.

 

[KBayDog]

Much as I hate buzzwords, I do agree with the 'culture of fitness' phrase that's been thrown around the last few years.

I'm not a fan of it on the Marine side. I know, I know, I'm a blasphemer. Sue me. Don't get me wrong: I am a a huge advocate of fitness (after all, my PE degree doesn't mean "Physical Engineer"). I just get tired of how "trendy" things have become:

-When Mc-Fu was new and exciting, every Marine suddenly became a cage fighter.
-When Crossfit was the cool new thing, every Marine suddenly had to start flipping tires, tossing ammo cans, etc. (enter the CFT).
-Today, every Marine (including plenty who still run a 27:59 PFT!) is running around with those Vibram shoes.

What's next?

We absolutely need some sort of standardized fitness test, and for several decades, the semi-annual PFT fit the bill. It set a baseline fitness level every Marine...regardless of MOS...was expected to achieve. A few years back, we decided we needed a CFT because it was determined that the PFT wasn't a true measure of combat fitness. Sure, whatever. I'ml not a fan of it, but if the CMC wants me to run a CFT, I'm going to support him and run a CFT. (I'm willing to discuss my dislike of the CFT over a beer sometime...)

The standardized fitness test, whatever it is, needs to be able to be administered any time, any place, with minimal equipment. It also needs to be administered...and the standards met...with no prior notice. We are not given a 10-week notice to get in shape. If you ask me, that's one of the things that the Corps does well: We expect every Marine to pass a PFT, and be within body composition standards, all the time. If I show up to work today, and my CO orders me to run a PFT, I'm expected to pass it (and, as an officer, I'd better damn well run a 1st Class!)

BLOB (Bottom Line On Bottom): Pick an easily-administered fitness test, and let every serviceman know he is expected to be able to pass it at any time, any place, with no notice. If he fails it, hold his feet to the fire.

 

[SWACQ]

Great post ^

If I can get a 300 on the CFT, you know its not that hard of a test. I actually have to put some effort in to get better than a 250 on the PFT.

 

[NightVisionPen]

I do not agree that running a 5k is an accurate measure of someone's overall fitness. It is a measure of their ability to lope along at a somewhat decent rate. There are plenty of twiggy 5k runners who can't do more than 2 pullups or 10 legit push ups. Some assessment of body weight strength should be incorporated. I think the run should be cut down to 800 meters actually - more of a sprint, but not shuttle runs.

 

[BACONATOR]

Get rid of situps and pushups and just use a 5k. If you can't run a 5k under thirty minutes, that says more about overall fitness than the myriad other reindeer games they'll come up.

No offense to Bevo's buddy - but whatever good ideas he comes up with are going to be summarily waterd down at the flag level.

begin flame-ex..... now.

If we're talking overall baseline cardiovascular health, yes a 5k would be a decent baseline. But if we're talking about somewhat job-related litmus tests of performance... when would we EVER need the cardiovascular endurance of a 5k in the Navy? Even a carrier isn't that long. I like the shorter shuttle-run idea. Running out to a bird on an alert-15, THAT would be a bit more important. In fact, let's make the vest and helmet a required piece of gear for the run.

 

[Recovering LSO]

If we're talking overall baseline cardiovascular health, yes a 5k would be a decent baseline. But if we're talking about somewhat job-related litmus tests of performance... when would we EVER need the cardiovascular endurance of a 5k in the Navy? Even a carrier isn't that long. I like the shorter shuttle-run idea. Running out to a bird on an alert-15, THAT would be a bit more important. In fact, let's make the vest and helmet a required piece of gear for the run.

Okay, let's come up with fifty different job related fitness tests that each designator/rating is required to do. Let's see.... What kind of things would we need to test a whiny over-opinionated helo dude for?... you know, hypothetically speaking, if we knew of one. When we're talking about the rigors and injustices of being asked to fly countless hours of vertrep the possibilities are limitless for job-related tests...

Now, a timed three mile run will give you a BETTER idea of overall fitness than the debacle that the Navy now call its PRT. If you can't/don't want to run - then you can swim it, but the length of the swim needs to be lengthened as well. Being able to do the minimum amount of pushups and situps does nothing to demonstrate fitness OR strength. Hell, MAXING out the pushup still doesn't speak much to strength. I'll grant you that pullups are different story.

The direction I see the Navy headed is one where overall fitness and wellness is the primary concern (see articles about un-sustainable health care costs). In that light, a person who can run a 25 minute 5k, and in my opinion (as some who has run more miles than you have moronic posts on AW) is a better indicator of overall fitness.

Let's see, this is getting fun. "When would we EVER need the the cardiovascular endurance of a 5K in the Navy?" I dunno, maybe when you're treading water for hours in the middle of the ocean because you lost your raft and the super sweet helo guys can't find you. Maybe when you've jumped out of your jet in the middle of bad guy land and are trying to quickly get away from the "cut your head off on video" camp. Maybe when a Hornet lands aboard the ship and immediately goes up in flames - hauling those fire hoses around and working to put out the fire. Maybe when you're sitting in the cockpit of an aircraft on the flight deck in the NAG on an August afternoon - when the temp in the cockpit is approaching 160 degrees. Maybe when you're a "flying squad" (medical response team) on a carrier and need to be able to make it to any corner of the ship in a very few short minutes. Maybe when you're on an IA and climbing up and down trails in the Korengal Valley, sucking wind because all you did was fly too much vertrep and run shuttle runs. Should I go on?

 

[BACONATOR]

Okay, let's come up with fifty different job related fitness tests that each designator/rating is required to do. Let's see.... What kind of things would we need to test a whiny over-opinionated helo dude for?... you know, hypothetically speaking, if we knew of one. When we're talking about the rigors and injustices of being asked to fly countless hours of vertrep the possibilities are limitless for job-related tests...

Now, a timed three mile run will give you a BETTER idea of overall fitness than the debacle that the Navy now call its PRT. If you can't/don't want to run - then you can swim it, but the length of the swim needs to be lengthened as well. Being able to do the minimum amount of pushups and situps does nothing to demonstrate fitness OR strength. Hell, MAXING out the pushup still doesn't speak much to strength. I'll grant you that pullups are different story.

The direction I see the Navy headed is one where overall fitness and wellness is the primary concern (see articles about un-sustainable health care costs). In that light, a person who can run a 25 minute 5k, and in my opinion (as some who has run more miles than you have moronic posts on AW) is a better indicator of overall fitness.

Let's see, this is getting fun. "When would we EVER need the the cardiovascular endurance of a 5K in the Navy?" I dunno, maybe when you're treading water for hours in the middle of the ocean because you lost your raft and the super sweet helo guys can't find you. Maybe when you've jumped out of your jet in the middle of bad guy land and are trying to quickly get away from the "cut your head off on video" camp. Maybe when a Hornet lands aboard the ship and immediately goes up in flames - hauling those fire hoses around and working to put out the fire. Maybe when you're sitting in the cockpit of an aircraft on the flight deck in the NAG on an August afternoon - when the temp in the cockpit is approaching 160 degrees. Maybe when you're a "flying squad" (medical response team) on a carrier and need to be able to make it to any corner of the ship in a very few short minutes. Maybe when you're on an IA and climbing up and down trails in the Korengal Valley, sucking wind because all you did was fly too much vertrep and run shuttle runs. Should I go on?

With your snide comments aside, I can agree that pullups are a good indicator of overall upper body strength. Curlups are a decent indicator of core strength. I just think a 3 mile run is a bit ridiculous, at least with the way fitness culture is in the Navy CURRENTLY. Of course, if we change the standards, then that fosters an environment for change about the way we approach fitness and how it plays into our daily lives.

Not that I've ever failed a PRT, but I just hate running. I'm not good at it. Even training for months when I actually cared, I never got below 10:30 on the run. My motivation against the 5k is a purely selfish disdain for running over twice what I already do. Raise the bar, and I'll raise my performance just enough to cover the bar.

 

[Recovering LSO]

I just think a 3 mile run is a bit ridiculous

and what do you think of these realistic situations?

"...Maybe when you're treading water for hours in the middle of the ocean because you lost your raft and the super sweet helo guys can't find you. Maybe when you've jumped out of your jet in the middle of bad guy land and are trying to quickly get away from the "cut your head off on video" camp. Maybe when a Hornet lands aboard the ship and immediately goes up in flames - hauling those fire hoses around and working to put out the fire. Maybe when you're sitting in the cockpit of an aircraft on the flight deck in the NAG on an August afternoon - when the temp in the cockpit is approaching 160 degrees. Maybe when you're a "flying squad" (medical response team) on a carrier and need to be able to make it to any corner of the ship in a very few short minutes. Maybe when you're on an IA and climbing up and down trails in the Korengal Valley, sucking wind because all you did was fly too much vertrep and run shuttle runs...."

Is your typical slug who is only going to run six miles a year vice three miles a year gonna do any better in these situations? Doubtful. BUT, more would be required of the member between PRT cycles to keep themselves in passing shape - this would HOPEFULLY have the desired effect of improved overall wellness and health.

Whoever made the post about mx control and front office being the key drivers for this... spot on.

 

[FlyBoyd]

I got this a few months back. It is a quick summary of changes in the new (not yet signed) OPNAVINST 6110.1J.

View attachment Summary of Changes - OPNAVINST 6110 1J.pdf

 

[BACONATOR]

and what do you think of these realistic situations?

"...Maybe when you're treading water for hours in the middle of the ocean because you lost your raft and the super sweet helo guys can't find you. Maybe when you've jumped out of your jet in the middle of bad guy land and are trying to quickly get away from the "cut your head off on video" camp. Maybe when a Hornet lands aboard the ship and immediately goes up in flames - hauling those fire hoses around and working to put out the fire. Maybe when you're sitting in the cockpit of an aircraft on the flight deck in the NAG on an August afternoon - when the temp in the cockpit is approaching 160 degrees. Maybe when you're a "flying squad" (medical response team) on a carrier and need to be able to make it to any corner of the ship in a very few short minutes. Maybe when you're on an IA and climbing up and down trails in the Korengal Valley, sucking wind because all you did was fly too much vertrep and run shuttle runs...."

Ok, well as long as we're talking job-specific, you're talking about a minority of people who would be in those situations. I'd say the majority of people (at least in my squadron) is AM2 WorksHARD who works 12on/12off shifts, and gets home and falls asleep watching TV, never has time to work out outside of squadron PT and his food options consist of whatever the food-run 3rd class can grab at the food court, or whatever disgusting hot dogs are spinning on the heater in the geedunk. That's probably more representative of the vast majority of the Navy, so what test would be best fitting for them.

Do we need a special PRT for Aviation officers? Aircrew have their own test. Seals have their own test. Is that what you're arguing?

 

[Recovering LSO]

I got this a few months back. It is a quick summary of changes in the new (not yet signed) OPNAVINST 6110.1J.

View attachment 13096

That's been out for a little while. I'm curious to see what recommendations Bevo's office-mate is working on for the actual PRT events.

 

[scoolbubba]

The Navy PRP office is right next to mine, and I know the guy who is in charge of the changes. There are a lot of possible changes in the works, mostly for the better. These aren't tweaks, but wholesale changes. When Pete gets back from TAD, I'll see if I can get some specifics.

Doc Pete actually flew with us yesterday to get his hours, and was talking to us about the change from strictly muscular endurance to agility, strength, and anaerobic fitness as a more realistic indicator of fitness. Shuttle runs, grip tests, one legged wall squats were all on the table. It seemed like a good idea; now you've got to make physical fitness a priority as part of everyone's fine Navy day...Maybe less online CSA/MCAS/post deployment health assessments/gmts/DADT kumbaya training, and more hours dedicated to PT. Just a thought.

 

[Bevo16]

The Navy Times article is pretty well spot on. The Beta Test message came out at NPC a few weeks ago, and there is a big "test pool" coming out of the University of Memphis as well. We have all of those little gadgets (like the leg strength test) up in the office and I took a few of them for a spin.

Personally, I really like the idea of a shuttle run but doing 300 yards in 25 yard increments is not the best way to go. Even world class sprinters are not up to speed in 25 yards, and 50 yard intervals (or a combination of intervals) would be better. 25, back, 50, back, 100, back. 350 yards, and you can't game it.

The leg test machine can be gamed. I pulled on it the right way, and had a decent score. Then I said "watch this" and pulled a much better score. Pete was like "wow, good job!" and I asked if he could see what I did. He couldn't, and the difference was that I slid the bar over my knees and just leaned back and let my weight and leverage pull on the spring. He said "well, that's cheating." OK, think our sailors won't figure that out?

I think that cadence pushups are a bad idea, but form needs to be more important. It is also insulting that women get to do their pushups on their knees.

For every guy in the Navy who used to run cross country in high school that says "just run a 5 K" there are 5-6 basketball players or football players saying "FUCK THAT NOISE". I ran a 52 second 400M at last year's NPC Olympics (at 200 pounds), so I am in pretty good shape. I want no part of a fucking 5K. I don't want to have to train to run that distance, and the majority of sailors (even the ones who have a culture of fitness) are going to be on my side. The run is the most often failed portion of the PRT, making it roughly twice as long as it currently is will not "fix" anything.

One of the things that the Navy gets right (especially for officers) is that the only thing that goes on your eval is "passed within standards". Your officer photo in your service record will tell the board if you are a fat fuck who is borderline. It makes no fucking sense whatsoever to base promotions on a fitness test that favors certain body types. There has never been a day in my career where I could not take and pass a PRT (other than a few ankle injuries, and when I had a tone nail cut off). I agree that it should be a spot test. Give a guy 3 days notice (it would suck to have to do pushups the day after chest and arms) and then you get what you get. 10 weeks notice, plus the "bad day" option for the workout and PFA makes no sense. You can't have a "bad day" for bodyfat. You are either fat, or you aren't. Nobody wakes up 3-4% different on body fat on different days of the same week without surgery or amputation. I'll cut the women a break here, for POSSIBLE water retention issues. Still, taking a "bad day" should mean an automatic 6 month trip to FEP.

I think that we should have 3 events. Pushups, shuttle run, mile run. Make them 100 points each, with a perfect score of 300. Each pushup is worth 1 point, and figure out a time/age scale for the other events.

 

[KBayDog]

In that light, a person who can run a 25 minute 5k, and in my opinion (as some who has run more miles than you have moronic posts on AW) is a better indicator of overall fitness.

This has got to be one of the top 5 posts. Ever.