New scholarship rules

[DanMa1156]

I agree with MIDNAdmiral. I am a former SWO and have technical degree. Although officers with engineering degrees may seem to overanalyze things at first, we have skills that are critical to the Navy and society. Thus, it's in the best interests of the Navy to encourage as many people as possible to get a technical degree. When you have an engineering graduate who actually can learn to be a leader, such as through the Navy's program, you have a person who can virtually take over any organization. I know this from experience because everything I've done since the Navy (including law school) has been really easy. Imagine the impact on society of all these highly trained engineers coming out the Navy with leadership skills? That would stimulate the economy.
One observation I have based on my experience is that after an engineer gets some experience, our logic blows everybody out of the water. After a little Ensign acne, I thought being a SWO got really easy (so much for eating their young - this is a myth created by incompetent JO's). Most of the other JO's with engineering degrees felt the same way I did and kind of thought most of the other non-technical major officers were kind of stupid. I saw the history, poly sci, business majors struggling with stuff that a first year engineering student would laugh at. There is definitely a significant advantage having a technical degree than not.

As a student ECONOMIST, I can say, that actually, it wouldn't. Perhaps the quality of the engineering workforce, but the economy as a whole? I think you're being a little far-reaching there.

I'd argue that Augusts Buell's description of a Naval Officer still stands true today - he goes on to say "...He should be as well a gentleman of liberal education, refined manners..."

While technical competency is great, I think the Navy specifically has a mix of officers from commissioning sources and degrees. Personally, I like how I have a good mix of highly technical courses and Economics courses, humanities courses, as well as practical professional courses. Do I know for sure this is the best way to become an officer? No, but the Navy has allowed me to pursue it, so there must be some sort of reason they've allowed me to choose this type of education.

 

[scoolbubba]

I saw the history, poly sci, business majors struggling with stuff that a first year engineering student would laugh at. There is definitely a significant advantage having a technical degree than not.

Because all liberal arts majors are F***ing retarded, clearly.

 

[bunk22]

While technical competency is great, I think the Navy specifically has a mix of officers from commissioning sources and degrees. Personally, I like how I have a good mix of highly technical courses and Economics courses, humanities courses, as well as practical professional courses. Do I know for sure this is the best way to become an officer? No, but the Navy has allowed me to pursue it, so there must be some sort of reason they've allowed me to choose this type of education.

Thats the key, having a mixture of talent in the team. Certain jobs most likely, absolutely, require a technical degree and that's when it's necessary. There just isn't any evidence to show that a tech major type makes a better leader than a non-tech guy. Leadership is an individual trait not a degree trait.

 

[NozeMan]

I agree with MIDNAdmiral. I am a former SWO and have technical degree. Although officers with engineering degrees may seem to overanalyze things at first, we have skills that are critical to the Navy and society. Thus, it's in the best interests of the Navy to encourage as many people as possible to get a technical degree. When you have an engineering graduate who actually can learn to be a leader, such as through the Navy's program, you have a person who can virtually take over any organization. I know this from experience because everything I've done since the Navy (including law school) has been really easy. Imagine the impact on society of all these highly trained engineers coming out the Navy with leadership skills? That would stimulate the economy.
One observation I have based on my experience is that after an engineer gets some experience, our logic blows everybody out of the water. After a little Ensign acne, I thought being a SWO got really easy (so much for eating their young - this is a myth created by incompetent JO's). Most of the other JO's with engineering degrees felt the same way I did and kind of thought most of the other non-technical major officers were kind of stupid. I saw the history, poly sci, business majors struggling with stuff that a first year engineering student would laugh at. There is definitely a significant advantage having a technical degree than not.

Ya, pretty sure your degree will have no bearing on how well you will do in flight school, with the exception of flight majors. Engineering majors can fvck it away just as easily as us lib arts majors. We have this thing called "flight school" to bring everyone, regardless of degree/background, to the same level.

 

[EM1toNFO]

to bring everyone, regardless of degree/background, to the same level.

I'm sorry, but i have to ask the question...

Does that mean bringing some students up, while making others dumber?



PS. I hope this thread stays open long enough for me to re-post again after 3 years when I'm done with my Engineering degree and flight school.

 

[NozeMan]

I'm sorry, but i have to ask the question...

Does that mean bringing some students up, while making others dumber?



PS. I hope this thread stays open long enough for me to re-post again after 3 years when I'm done with my Engineering degree and flight school.

I'm sure some engineers would say "yes" after API. The Aero and Systems classes in API SIGNIFICANTLY dumb down the subject, gotta make the non science types have a pilot's understanding of the subject.

 

[BlackBearHockey]

My Educational Psychology class had a statistic where the average LAS major graduated college with 20+ more of an IQ than their engineering/physics counterpart.

Just sayin....

 

[wink]

This is the perpetual debate over the Technician Warrior and the liberally (classical, not political) educated Scholar Warrior. I predict another Proceedings article on the subject given the new NROTC policy. I understand the view that a very challenging engineering or science program teaches students to prioritize and be disciplined. These are certainly traits desirable in a naval officer. There are, however, other ways to instill these qualities in students. It certainly happens at the Boat School, regardless of major. As someone that has interviewed hundreds of wannabes applying to OCS and direct commission, I can say that it is pretty easy to determine if a guy has those traits based on other life experiences then just their college major. I for one believe there needs to be a mix of guys with technical majors and those with non technical backgrounds. I do not believe this new policy will result in maintaining that ratio at a healthy level.

 

[KCOTT]

the navy is a technical branch, i don't see what the big deal is...it's not saying that engineering majors are going to be better officers than liberal arts majors, its just that they would prefer to see technical backgrounds since the navy is getting more and more technologically advanced

plus, scholarship middies have to take physics, calculus, and chemistry no matter what your major is, so why waste those classes on a liberal arts degree?

as for myself...yes, i did start off in aeronautical engineering upon entering my freshman year on scholarship, and there were about 20 of us in total out of an initial freshman-O class of 78 (mostly college-program), now four years later, there remains only 2 engineers

most of the fellow middies in my class switched out of engineering before the completion of their first year, however, i held on to about my junior year until i was at the point where i couldn't take it and was hard to keep up with everybody else

it just sucks being ranked in your class where GPA is the primary factor, and all your friends are taking easy ass business and other liberal arts classes, while i was taking mechanics, thermodynamics, heat transfer, and high level math...add all of that to endless everyday rotc bullshit, lack of sleep during the week, drill, PT and rotc classes as well, it creates quite the academic strain

im upset at myself to this day still that i switched, i pretty much kissed any opportunity of TPS good bye out the window and felt like i wasted my time with all them math, physics and chemistry classes

but on the positive end, i find myself taking a lighter load, easier classes, less staying up all night to study, AND THE BEST PART...i am going to commission a year earlier rather than be a full five year engineering student

all in all, i dont think this is necessarily a bad thing, i know the air force has something similar about your major and retaining a scholarship, but let's not forget that the navy is a technical branch and it would be in their best interests to have its personnel proficient in a technical major...not saying that one major makes for a better officer than the other one, but if i was CNO of the navy and had to decide whether i wanted my officers to have technical backgrounds, or a liberal arts background, i would choose technical

 

[scoolbubba]

"It is by no means enough that an officer of the Navy should be a capable mariner. He must be that, of course, but also a great deal more. He should be as well a gentleman of liberal education, refined manners, punctilious courtesy, and the nicest sense of personal honor."

John Paul Jones, or Augustus Buell, depending on who you ask. Either one says it better than any of us schmucks can. It doesn't matter the major, as long as the person is a good officer, capable of learning our trade.

 

[KCOTT]

Ya, pretty sure your degree will have no bearing on how well you will do in flight school, with the exception of flight majors. Engineering majors can fvck it away just as easily as us lib arts majors. We have this thing called "flight school" to bring everyone, regardless of degree/background, to the same level.

i think you're missing his point, no where did he say that having an engineering degree would favor you in flight school, if that were the case, then it would be best for the navy to only send engineering majors to flight school

he's just commenting on the style of thinking for that of engineers, and he's right, most do over analyze and attack a problem from many different perspectives, which in some cases can be good or bad - good because you might be able to find a solution that a non-tech wasn't able to find, but bad because you took forever to come up with the solution because you had analyzed the scenario too much and for too long

one major advantage i notice in those who have tech degrees, is their persistence and willpower, which will help them get through the grind and frustrations of training...trust me, there's nothing more demotivating and painful as studying until 5 am in the morning for a dynamics exam later that day...shit sucks, but they get through it because of their persistence and willpower, two attributes that would bode well for any naval officer in the fleet, technical degree or not...im not saying all non-techs can't possess those traits (since i am technically a non-tech myself but have been there), but when you encounter the frustrations and pains of training in the fleet, engineering majors were already there their freshman year of college...it's a mindset they've been able to develop and refine

 

[picklesuit]

one major advantage i notice in those who have tech degrees, is their persistence and willpower, which will help them get through the grind and frustrations of training...trust me, there's nothing more demotivating and painful as studying until 5 am in the morning for a dynamics exam later that day...shit sucks, but they get through it because of their persistence and willpower, two attributes that would bode well for any naval officer in the fleet, technical degree or not...im not saying all non-techs can't possess those traits (since i am technically a non-tech myself but have been there), but when you encounter the frustrations and pains of training in the fleet, engineering majors were already there their freshman year of college...it's a mindset they've been able to develop and refine

Yeah...Organic Chemistry was easy...glad I picked an easy major...I don't know HOW I made it through pilot training...

 

[KCOTT]

"It is by no means enough that an officer of the Navy should be a capable mariner. He must be that, of course, but also a great deal more. He should be as well a gentleman of liberal education, refined manners, punctilious courtesy, and the nicest sense of personal honor."

John Paul Jones, or Augustus Buell, depending on who you ask. Either one says it better than any of us schmucks can. It doesn't matter the major, as long as the person is a good officer, capable of learning our trade.

question here...assuming they have already learned the trade and became a capable officer, would the navy be better off if all of its officers had an engineering major or a liberal arts major?

 

[KCOTT]

Yeah...Organic Chemistry was easy...glad I picked an easy major...I don't know HOW I made it through pilot training...

i sense the obvious sarcasm, i never said studying chemistry made for an easy major, i was implying all the people in my class who switched to like business, aviation management, or basket-weaving

 

[picklesuit]

i sense the obvious sarcasm, i never said studying chemistry made for an easy major, i was implying all the people in my class who switched to like business, aviation management, or basket-weaving

I think you are implying that you are speaking out yer ass and have no idea how any sort of degree/major affects the "Fleet"....as a fellow Basket-Weaver I can attest that an engineering degree (or lack thereof) means jack-shit when it comes to performance...they call it "Pilot Training" for a reason...they train us...I know an Aviation Management grad who finished Primary with a 68 and jets, I know an engineer who just rolled out of advanced because he couldn't hack it in the Tone...

Hell, I have an Animal Science degree, I almost flunked business math (you know, matrices, accounting shit, algebra) and had Jet scores in Primary and did decently in Advanced...YOUR MAJOR MEANS NOTHING!!!
Pickle