NFO's instructing at Meridian/Kingsville

[bunk22]

There are C-2 guys that teach the Weps pattern, its not very difficult.

Yet the IP is still a pilot. I take it the weps pattern is designed to teach basics to studs...well a pilot with 1000+ hours could be taught to teach it is my guess. Afterall, he's a single anchor with flight time, even if it is the most basic (s&l).

 

[a_m]

You'de be ok....just wait till you see the boat at night for the first time with a CAT 1 LTJG

2 weeks with a Cat 1 LT.

 

[FLYTPAY]

Yet the IP is still a pilot. I take it the weps pattern is designed to teach basics to studs...well a pilot with 1000+ hours could be taught to teach it is my guess. Afterall, he's a single anchor with flight time, even if it is the most basic (s&l).

Yeah...the WEPS pattern is a left hand pattern....something hard to teach a C-2 guy

 

[Single Seat]

So if a student gets target fixated in a dive in the weps pattern, or is just so AFU he needs a demo from his IP.... how is that supposed to work with an NFO in the back?

Not bagging on NFO's, but for the PILOT training pipline, IMO that IP in the back should be able to take the controls, and demonstrate at any point in any flight.

 

[SDNalgene]

From what I was told, the NFO's would be instructing in the backseat of FAM complete students (i.e. the student is NATOPS qualed in the jet).

I agree, what's the point if they can't take controls? So what I don't understand is how they are going to instruct since there are times when it's better to take controls & demo a learning point instead of trying to explain it while flying.

I absolutely agree. From a student perspective it's nice to have the IP be able to take the controls and show me what something is supposed to look like. A lot of times seeing the right sight picture is where the light bulb finally clicks on. Not a knock on NFOs, but even though the NFO in the back knows what the sight picture is supposed to look like, unless he can take the controls and show me what a B & R or whatever is supposed to look like it isn't going to be nearly as effective.

Also, I am NATOPS qualed in the jet, but I still like having an IP with a thousand plus hours there to save my retarded ass from myself when I need it. Having more stick time than the guy in the back of an orange and white plane just seems really weird to me. Again, not trying to knock NFOs at all.

 

[puck_11]

Yet the IP is still a pilot. I take it the weps pattern is designed to teach basics to studs...well a pilot with 1000+ hours could be taught to teach it is my guess. Afterall, he's a single anchor with flight time, even if it is the most basic (s&l).

The way WEPS works is we learn the basic skills and pattern in the sims, and then in the A/C the IP in the back is basically telling us we're steep or shallow, released high or low and making sure we have the correct interval. But you do bring up a good point that if shit goes bad, ie cutting off your interval/simo run you'll want someone who can take the controls. I'm just trying to throw things out there to see how things could work with a NFO in the back.

 

[A4sForever]

...It's always the $...

If it was a "good idea", it would have been done a long, long time ago ...

"They" tried a similar thing in the airlines for simulators --and make certain you understand this: it's always about the $$$ -- but the active line pilots fought it as it ultimately meant pilot jobs -- and it ultimately will here, too.

What's an NFO gonna teach a shaky pilot-STUD in formation/low levels/ACM/weapons ... ??? How to eject ??? We would try to put "experienced" B/N's w/ nugget pilots in the FLEET -- when $$$ was NOT the object, different sure, but still everyone fought it.

No hate, so don't even go there. I come from a multi-crew environment in the military and civie street and know the potential and actual value of crew members. But in the NAVAIRTRACOM context -- except to monitor and yell and throw a kneeboard ... an NFO cannot "teach" a pilot-STUD how to "fly" ...

This is just wrong headed.

 

[FLYTPAY]

For the record....both NFO to Pilot completers last month in Meridian got funny looks on their faces when they heard of this program and wondered how it could work for the benefit of the student.

 

[jarhead]

ACM (BFM) & WEPS were mentioned ...

BFM:
What if the student goes OCF? Is higher willing to risk a student knocking out his OCF procedures correctly? Goes for any emergency for that matter. Who will higher blame if the student jacks up the emergency procedure and crashes the jet? Is higher willing to lay blame on a 100ish hour student? There’s been numerous incidents where students did something ignorant like shut the motor off inflight or try to fly the jet into the ground during a night break and the IP had to take controls.

What if a student with his "fangs" out presses inside the 500' bubble pulling lead for a snap? What's the NFO going to do? It’s quicker to just take the jet and maneuver the jet instead of talking over the ICS.

What if the student isn't grasping the concept behind, let’s say, the flats entry? Instead of taking the jet & letting the student ride the controls while you demo the entry, an NFO's only option will be to communicate over the ICS and during the debrief ... wasted training opportunity, IMO.

WEPS:
Is there time to talk on the ICS or just take controls if ….

... the student cuts out his interval in the circle the wagon pattern and is setting up for a simo run?

... on the off target rdvs … the student blows through his altitude and doesn’t see his interval?

... the student presses the trgt due to fixation?

a few examples in which you don't have time to talk on the ICS, you take controls from the student.

What if the student isn't grasping the roll in? Take controls and demo or try to talk about it on the ICS during a flight where the comms are already congested?

Forms & tac-forms, landing pattern, precautionary approaches, how will NFO's teach those? Anybody can regurgitate the FTI's, but how are you going to critique somebody if you’ve never flown it yourself?

I could go on and on about how this idea doesn't really meet the "sniff" test.

I think low levels could be a place NFO's could backseat ... you better have a big sack though flying 500'/360kts with a nugget who barely has the SA to fly at 15k/250kts

S/F

 

[Hozer]

If it was a "good idea", it would have been done a long, long time ago ...

Well said. It seems that CNATRA may be trying to solve several problems at once. I believe in the near future (24 months) a come-to-Jesus moment is going to happen with NFO training.
-With the AF taking their students away, approx half of the demand is gone in VT's for WSO/Nav production.
-Just a guess, but Intermediate/Advance NFO training might be deemed inefficient and a longer Primary followed by a longer FRS syllabus becomes the pipeline for Tacair NFO's.
-Kingsville is short of IP's.
-You're not going to attract upwardly mobile NFO instructors to P-cola if all they are going to do is sit in simulators.
-Put Tacair NFO's in -45's training SNA's after they are "safe-to-solo".

I, too, am skeptical not in the ability of but the investment needed to get an NFO up to speed in a 45 to be not just safe, but "credible".

After all, this is just "exploratory". Strictly aside, I'd love to fly in the clown jet.

 

[HAL Pilot]

It will last until the first accident investigation where the flight recorder shows the instructor NFO intimidated the young ENS student into giving him the jet.....

Being an NFO, I love us and our job. This is not our job. I also know there are enough distruntled pilot wanna-be NFOs that would see this as an opportunity for stick time.

I can see NFOs working with fleet experienced pilots in some of these roles, but not in a training command.

 

[jarhead]

question for the masses ... if you have a civilian pilots license, can you log, on the civilian side, 2nd pilot time if you were to fly in the backseat of a T-45? How about in your military logbook?

S/F

 

[FLYTPAY]

question for the masses ... if you have a civilian pilots license, can you log, on the civilian side, 2nd pilot time if you were to fly in the backseat of a T-45? How about in your military logbook?

S/F

No...it does not REQUIRE the backseater, if you were to get a Hawk "type" rating (I am not even going to start the difference between this and a experiment jet authorization) then you could. The FAA currently has no such an animal.
Yes....military logbook is Special Crew Time unless NA/SNA at controls

 

[HAL Pilot]

Actually, I can think of a couple of ways you could....

Safety pilot if the guy in front is flying simulated instrument (i.e. under the hood).

If the Navy actually made the NFO a pilot instructor and the NFO had his CFI ticket.

In these cases, the NFO could actually log PIC......

I'd hate trying to defend it during an interview though (PIC or SIC). Or even to a friend. It sucks when they are laughing at you and not with you.

 

[Flash]

Being an NFO, I love us and our job. This is not our job.

Could not have said it better myself.