How many of those do you create?
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NFO's instructing at Meridian/Kingsville
- Thread starter jarhead
- Start date
How many of those do you create?
MasterBates
Well-Known Member
We have 2 or so in each squadron here most of the time.
You get the same CRM experience with an added safety factor having a pilot instructor than an NFO instructor in the backseat.
Ditto for the A-6 as well ... in fact, after our safe for solo, most of our RAG hops were flown with FRP's in the left seat w/ highly qualified, battle-hardened, very experienced Instructor NFO/BN's in the right seat .... Instructor B/N's who briefed, rode, instructed, navigated, bombed, debriefed and graded the budding young life-taker and heart-breaker ... the FRP ... it was the nature of the beast in that particular stage of training. It was the right way to do it; it was the ONLY way to do it ... I think the first time we were paired up w/ FRBN's was at Fallon and obviously, during CQ.
BUT: the first time I got a "FIRE" light was just past Smith Island heading out SW on a training "hi-lo-bomb-hi" hop w/ one of the West Coast B/N "legends" from VA-128 instucting from the right seat. Long story semi-short: it was 90% me, 90% my decision making, and 100% my flying that brought us home and "saved the day" ... it was an instance that wasn't in the PCL and didn't follow that you necessarily "jump out" when the "FIRE" light comes on ...
The RAG C.O. called said Instuctor B/N into his office for a debrief afterwards ... not me ... not both of us ... just the B/N, who later cornered me in the RR and told me "the C.O. said "WE" did a great job and he knows he can trust you (me) with his airplanes .. "
So who was "responsible"?? The FRP-STUD or the highly qualified, battle-hardened, very experienced Instructor??
I signed for the A/C, I flew it, I initiated the emergency procedures, I made the decisions (concurred on by the Instructor B/N) and I brought us home. He got the front office massaging & whispered handling afterward -- I didn't even get a free beer at the Club. :sleep_125
Now move it to the TRACOM and tell me who's "responsible" ... ??
So what you are saying is that you have always been a real 'popular' guy?
I weep for your future ...
Random question about NATOPS quals. My understanding is that the NATOPS qual that fam complete students have isn't a NATOPS qual per say, it just means you can sign for the jet if you are solo. Someone who is NATOPS qualed in the 45 can sit in either seat with anyone (student or instructor) in the other seat? Is this correct?
We don't do the all CAT-I/II front seat thing at all. Not even at the boat. Wish we did at some point in the syllabus.
My guess is that depends on squadron and wing SOP. The NATOPS qual we get at -129 is the no shit Prowler NATOPS qual, but as a FRP/FRECMO, we can olnly sit front seat with an instructor.
But not having gone through the T-45 syllabus, I can't vouch for what "type" of NATOPS qual single anchor studs get. The actual NATOPS qual consists of two exams and a checkride (aircraft or sim). So why wouldn't it be the actual one? You can get in knocked out in a couple of days.
Meh, what the hell, I'll play devil's advocate and throw out this question: Why not let helo bubbas instruct in the VT(j)s? I remember talking to a jet IP in my ASO class and he was appalled at the fact that it can be hard for a helo guy to get a production job while the jet VTs are hurting for IP bodies.
One would assume if a helo guy can be reprogrammed to fly T-34s or T-6s, couldn't he also be taught the T-45?
MasterBates
Well-Known Member
I argued that myself, and the pushback was always "P3/E6 guys fly closer to jet speeds, etc". Before I got my E2C2 transition, I tried to get to NMM or NPA as a T2/T45 IP, and was told not only NO but HELL NO.
Well, helos land on boats. Not the same as FW, but the P3 guys have never SEEN a boat half the time.
P3 bubbas who come here to instruct go through a much more thorough syllabus than a normal IP. I want to say it takes them about 6 months to get fully qualed, but I could be wrong and I don't have a MCG for that handy. I do know it's longer than the standard IUT but not 100% sure of how much longer.
I had a harder time adapting to how things were done in the T-44, even coming from a multicrewed aircraft than the T-45. The 45 is not that hard to fly. The TH-57C is harder to fly than this jet.
I struggled far worse in TH-57s doing BI/RI even with a shat-ton of civillian B206 time (very little instruments though) than I have ever struggled in the T-45. Except on the fitting in front, but that's because I am a freaking ogre.
Well, helos land on boats. Not the same as FW, but the P3 guys have never SEEN a boat half the time.
P3 bubbas who come here to instruct go through a much more thorough syllabus than a normal IP. I want to say it takes them about 6 months to get fully qualed, but I could be wrong and I don't have a MCG for that handy. I do know it's longer than the standard IUT but not 100% sure of how much longer.
I had a harder time adapting to how things were done in the T-44, even coming from a multicrewed aircraft than the T-45. The 45 is not that hard to fly. The TH-57C is harder to fly than this jet.
I struggled far worse in TH-57s doing BI/RI even with a shat-ton of civillian B206 time (very little instruments though) than I have ever struggled in the T-45. Except on the fitting in front, but that's because I am a freaking ogre.
Can P-3/E-6/Rotor dudes teach in the T-45? Yup, they have and do. Lobo Niedermair, a Hummer dude, taught 2/3 PL ACM like a kung-fu masta.
They (non FW boat dudes) take a long time to train, some students percieve a lack of credibility (not me, we had some good dudes). In the end the X production crunch always comes in phase 2 (ONAVS, WEAPS, MP ONAVS, ACM, CQ). We never have enough IP's to push the elephant through the snake there, folks did three a day and Sundays too to make wingings (buy yer IP a beer boys, they didn't have to do it.)
IP's from the rotor/P-3/E-6/some E-2/C-2 world take a very long time to get the experience it takes to teach Phase 2 stuff, but they do on a case by case basis. Some dudes just arent comfy outside the FAM/FORM/NFAM/BI/RI/AN world. Ive gotta say its a hell of a lot easier teaching PH1 and not comming a RCH from being splattered on the 50' left to right to lefts that happen in 3 plane ACM!
Are we there yet? Yup. Give the Stan-O a hug.
They (non FW boat dudes) take a long time to train, some students percieve a lack of credibility (not me, we had some good dudes). In the end the X production crunch always comes in phase 2 (ONAVS, WEAPS, MP ONAVS, ACM, CQ). We never have enough IP's to push the elephant through the snake there, folks did three a day and Sundays too to make wingings (buy yer IP a beer boys, they didn't have to do it.)
IP's from the rotor/P-3/E-6/some E-2/C-2 world take a very long time to get the experience it takes to teach Phase 2 stuff, but they do on a case by case basis. Some dudes just arent comfy outside the FAM/FORM/NFAM/BI/RI/AN world. Ive gotta say its a hell of a lot easier teaching PH1 and not comming a RCH from being splattered on the 50' left to right to lefts that happen in 3 plane ACM!
Are we there yet? Yup. Give the Stan-O a hug.
There are a lot of pilots that can't handle the higher A/S and NFOs that can. That reasoning is false. However, as I said earlier, pilots need to teach pilot shit. NFO can teach fleet pilots tactics, etc, but in the training command this is not the best idea that's come out of the head shed.
BTW, NFOs used to fly the base C-12s as copilot. They were given basic flight training and their C-12 NATOPS check included t/o and landing. Many NFOs went to the factory school along with the pilots and got type ratings added to their civilian tickets (if they had one). Then the pilot mafia rebelled and it went back to 2 pilots. Then the Navy started cutting back on the number of C-12s.
I knew a A-6 NFO that had almost 4500 hours of pilot time in C-12s and the Navy logged it all as 2nd pilot time in his Navy log. He flew A-6, shore tour C-12, disassociated CV tour, shore tour C-12, DH A-6, shore tour C-12 , got passed over for CDR (due to his career path) and retired as a LCDR (when they had the early retirements). He used to brag that as a NFO he had more Navy pilot time than most of the pilots he flew with. I knew him when he was the President of the Norfolk Navy Flying Club and the NAS Air Ops officer - owning the C-12 and flying it as copilot.
My guess is that studs don't get the full NATOPS qual because they don't do all that's required. Perhaps Jarhead can elaborate, but from the T-34 side... Even if the student is at the Advanced level while flying a T-34, there is still no need for a stud to learn how to do progressive spins, control-release spins, spirals (not really what it sounds like), aggravated approach-turn stalls, skidded-turn stalls, and OCF, all of which are required on a T-34 NATOPS.
Again, I'm guessing, but I'd bet there are some extra maneuvers in the -45 Natops that IPs do that studs don't, and therefore wouldn't have a full-up qual. Or maybe the fancy clown jet is just so easy, even a caveman can get a Natops qual.