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devilbones
Arashikage トーマス・嵐影
This is all my fault. I recommended it on the survey that was sent out last year.
I'm probably missing the point here, but what's the objection to 5 weeks "all expenses paid" in Newport? It IS a pretty major career milestone that would seem to be well worth the time and effort.
Whatever the Navy decides will be fine (ODS or keeping DCOIC). I don’t see the point in breaking it up into two parts, though.
DCOIC doesn’t cover GMT. SELRES complete it with their unit.
I don't see the need for five weeks of indoctrination into the reserve. My enlisted boot camp was 17 days in the Navy Reserve back in 2003.
It was more than enough. Yes - it takes a few years to really get totally acclimated to military culture. But we all have a few years to do that before deployments. And the extra three weeks officer training isn't going to be training that acclimates you. It's going to be a waste of your time and a hardship on your career.
This will not expand combat training or any of that stuff - it will be filler. Two weeks is plenty in my book. You may have wanted the full OCS experience ect, give it time. Before you deploy many of you will go to advanced schools and pre-deployment work out.
It was more than enough. Yes - it takes a few years to really get totally acclimated to military culture. But we all have a few years to do that before deployments. And the extra three weeks officer training isn't going to be training that acclimates you. It's going to be a waste of your time and a hardship on your career.
This will not expand combat training or any of that stuff - it will be filler. Two weeks is plenty in my book. You may have wanted the full OCS experience ect, give it time. Before you deploy many of you will go to advanced schools and pre-deployment work out.
bluemarlin04
Well-Known Member
Enlisted boot camp doesn’t teach you how to be an officer.
That is the entire point of OCS- to teach you how to be an officer and manage time, stress, etc AND how to lead. I think at least ODS could do some of that. Two weeks won’t teach anything.
Aside from if people think it’s necessary- I just never understood why we can’t hold active duty officers and reserve officers to the same standard and use the same training pipelines.
Life ain’t fair. Different strokes for different folks.
My take is that 17 days doesn't make one a sailor either - but it acculturates you quickly and it was enough to get people ready to be sailors when coupled with the 2-3 years of additional reserve training that went along with it. That's what the reserve does and it was effective and sufficient for thousands of sailors that served since 911 - be boot camp or DCOIC ect... It works!
People want more because they are let down they didn't join the Army or the Marine Corp. They don't need more than two weeks to be successful officers or enlisted and past performance shows it.
You can disagree and it's fine. I would agree more training can be a good thing if you are training for a specific outcome. But I disagree that a longer DCOIC or boot camp is necessary for Navy Reserve Officers or Enlisted to be effective.
It might be desirable to some - unesscearry and not so desirable to others. Many people chose the Navy Reserve DCO program ,myself included because of it has the least impact on your civilian life.
Many chose DCO because they are prior service enlisted like myself or officer, and have had extensive schools.
When mob comes, you've had a few years to learn to be a JO. When mobilized, JO's enlisted both get some advanced military training pre mob and many get some job specific training that lasts up to a few months. The reserve will never ever in a million years compare to active duty.
Active duty trains and does this job year round. The distinction is there. It is real and it will always be there. Standards are very relative and distinct between reserve and active duty. Function is what we need.
bluemarlin04
Well-Known Member
I don’t think in a professional military force that standards should ever be relative. Just my .02 and I know all the DCOs will disagree with me
Goodfou
Well-Known Member
You don’t think it is necessary because you don’t know the difference. Ask any FTS/Active Navy guy and they will tell you there is a stark difference between a straight stick reservist and one with FTS/Active experience. The Navy horribly mismanages the Reserves by letting so many members come in off the street. Increase bonuses to entice people getting off Active duty to affiliate with the reserves and get rid of E4 and below SELRES billets.
Furthermore, Intel is not the only DCO designator. CEC officers sometimes go straight into XO billets and deploy much faster than your pipeline. No 2-3 years of patty cake before doing real work.
Our job in the reserves is to be able to augment the AC with seamless integration at any time. Nothing pisses me off more than when I see or hear of SELRES acting like they don’t need to meet the standards (uniform or otherwise) of AC because they are SELRES.
There is a reason reservist have a bad reputation with the active component and FTS. Is it because of DCOIC? No, but I’m sure the lack of time to develop any resemblance of professionalism IN UNIFORM adds to the problem. Nothing beats time to train and ODS is a step in the right direction to prepare civilians to be marginally more respected in uniform as an Officer (regardless of designator).
By the way, SAPR, CMEO, DAPA, etc. are all GMT and are taught at DCOIC...
bluemarlin04
Well-Known Member
This.
100% on point.
Been an active duty 1830 and this man speaks the truth 100%.
Further, OCS is an accession program. So is UNSA an ROTC. The training they put you through is designed to crank up the stress and see how you react and manage your tasks. The whole point is to see how you’d respond deployed or in Combat situations.
You won’t get that in two weeks and with the DCOIC course the first test someone is going to get is at work ups or worst once they’re deployed.
And the prior e guys- OCS is NOTHING like boot camp. Not even Remotely similar.
I do know the difference. I acknowledge the different. Said as much in the last paragraph too. And I stand by it. And 3 more weeks DCOIC so someone can bark at people that are already commissioned is still silly in my mind. The program is a success. Three more weeks DCOIC isn't going to make it any better. 3 weeks professional training or general military training some place down the road in years 2, 3, 4 or beyond, might.
We might actually agree that time in uniform is useful. Seemless, nothing is seamless. A change of command is not seemless - so I think the integration is about as seemless as it needs to be. If improvement could be made with actual useful training, that might be good. Longer Indoc, and DCOIC schools aren't the way to make things more seemless or perfect in my mind.
I'll be candid - I've done my fair share of active time with mobs. It is a steep learning curve. And I don't place a ton of stock into what active duty folks think about reservists. The should get over themselves and do it fast if they have an issue with reservists.
For many reservists, the only way you would know someone standing next to you is a reservist, is if they tell you. Particularly reservists that have been around a while. Many reservists have more combat time than their active duty counter parts. Reservist pull the lion share of IA deployments for the Navy. I see a lot more reservists with campaign ribbons and combat awards than I see the active component wearing. Its often one of the first things active guys ask when they meet me... Where did you get all your award? IA... as guess what - a reservist.
Most active duty might have a small resistance to reservists at first glance, but they get over it in about five minutes once they see the person busting their ass.
That being said, the few active duty I've run into that have an attitude about reservist are under performers, with bad attitudes that hate their job and resent getting behind reservists that will probably out perform them in a few short month.
Active duty that don't want to deal with reservist ought to thank their lucky stars that they can actually shine for a moment and be better than someone for a change and help reservists and help the Navy for a hot minute rather than bitching about an opportunity to mentor and train.
Frankly, active does the job everyday and very few of them are as good at it as they think they are. Few skills are so refined that other highly functional people can't fill them easily. And DCO's are mostly, if not completely limited to the restricted line. They aren't going to be taking command of 7th fleet anytime soon so they need not have warfare unrestricted line qualifications or full time status and experience.
The talent pool the Navy gets from the DCO Program is above and beyond the talent pool that is recruited in almost any field out there, including the active duty navy. It is crazy competitive. Subjecting these folks to 3 more weeks isn't going to determine their success, but it might deter them from joining the Navy as opposed to another branch. Frankly, much of what is appealing about the DCO program is the abbreviated training. Many people joining the DCO program would rather be infantry, tankers, ect... But most have specialized skill sets, careers, families, and don't want to join the Army Reserve and do a six month basic school on top of OCS.
These DCO folks will succeed against all odds and are more accomplished than most of their active duty counterparts, perhaps not on a military resume, but what they have to offer is valuable. And Senior reservists that have been a round while, will give most active duty a run for their money in any role. Senior Reservists acquire skills in the outside world and from multiple mobs that the Navy lacks and they bring something unique to the table.
Most reservist can step into their gig and be as good at it or better than active duty in very short order, albeit - a steep learning cure. There are exceptions with some communities.
The reserve will never ever in a million years compare to active duty in readiness. It isn't supposed to. You don't expect people that do the job one weekend a month to be as expert as people that do it 365 days a year. But you expect them to be ale to learn quick and excel at the role in a short period of time. And, they do. And they do integrate seamlessly, as seamlessly as any other person ripping out or into to a new role.
Active duty trains and does this job year round. The distinction is there. It is real and it will always be there. Standards are very relative and distinct between reserve and active duty. Function is what we need. I stand by it.
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bluemarlin04
Well-Known Member
That’s pretty terrible you’re an officer and think standards are relative.
I pray to god I never have to work with you or any enlisted I know end up under your command.
Standards ARE NOT relative. Standards are standards we are only as good as the standards we uphold.
I pray to god I never have to work with you or any enlisted I know end up under your command.
Standards ARE NOT relative. Standards are standards we are only as good as the standards we uphold.