No more DCOIC?

[bluemarlin04]

Also- no one gives a shit about awards. I have tons of awards and campaign medals. I only wear my top 3. I don’t need to let people know of my previous experience to gain credibility.

 

[Reservist]

That’s pretty terrible you’re an officer and think standards are relative.

I pray to god I never have to work with you or any enlisted I know end up under your command.

Standards ARE NOT relative. Standards are standards we are only as good as the standards we uphold.

Standards set the floor. Beyond that floor, everything is relative. This is why some achieve higher than others. There can be different standards for active and reservist as well. So they can be relative and often times, they are. Different school, different training, different standard.

The basic floor is set by a standard and the reservists meet it.

Don't want to work with me Big Blue? Afraid you can't out shine a little reservist? What a leader you must be?

By they way - You're a cheery soul aren't you Bluemarlin. You sound more like you had some bad pickled fish sticks to me.

Maybe you're having a bad day.

Or maybe it's all that outstanding active duty bullshit your spotting off about it. Sounds like the world need more of that from a fearless leader like yourself.

 

[bluemarlin04]

I’m not competing with anyone.

I just think if reservists are going to augment active duty than the standards need to be the same.

That isn’t a ridiculous assumption and the other services seem to agree.

 

[Goodfou]

Standards set the floor. Beyond that floor, everything is relative. This is why some achieve higher than others. There can be different standards for active and reservist as well. So they can be relative and often times, they are. Different school, different training, different standard.

The basic floor is set by a standard and the reservists meet it.

Don't want to work with me Big Blue? Afraid you can't out shine a little reservist? What a leader you must be?

By they way - You're a cheery soul aren't you Bluemarlin. You sound more like you had some bad pickled fish sticks to me.

Maybe you're having a bad day.

Or maybe it's all that outstanding active duty bullshit your spotting off about it. Sounds like the world need more of that from a fearless leader like yourself.

Once again, you speak as if the entire Navy Reserve is Intel. News for you, Aviation is the largest operational piece of the Reserves and its members are constantly forward deployed. CEC may not be URL, but they are consistently forward deployed. Etc etc...

Additionally, your IAs, likely to Army units, don’t singlehandedly make you a better Naval Officer. Nor does your experience as a lawyer.

I don’t know where you are assigned, and it sounds like you may be a bit more of a hard charger than other SELRES (ever spend much time at a NOSC?), but that isn’t the norm in the Navy Reserves at large, and you are living in a bubble to think that civilian experience alone qualifies you to lead in the military and that OCS/ODS isn’t more successful indoctrinating civilians to the Navy and teaching them the basics of being a Naval Officer.

 

[Reservist]

Once again, you speak as if the entire Navy Reserve is Intel. News for you, Aviation is the largest operational piece of the Reserves and its members are constantly forward deployed. CEC may not be URL, but they are consistently forward deployed. Etc etc...

Additionally, your IAs, likely to Army units, don’t singlehandedly make you a better Naval Officer. Nor does your experience as a lawyer.

I don’t know where you are assigned, and it sounds like you may be a bit more of a hard charger than other SELRES (ever spend much time at a NOSC?), but that isn’t the norm in the Navy Reserves at large, and you are living in a bubble to think that civilian experience alone qualifies you to lead in the military and that OCS/ODS isn’t more successful indoctrinating civilians to the Navy and teaching them the basics of being a Naval Officer.

I see a lot wisdom in what you are saying - hope you see a bit in what I say. I suspect we will both get something out of this discussion.

I digress, but I think the dude talking about how he hopes that he or any enlisted he knows never works with me is temporarily out of his mind.... I can tell he is actually a smart person - I see some very clever ideas - but I think he may have taken the bait hook line and sinker and ran with his own ideas a bit too far. Let's real this back in. May be we can all get something out of this.

I think the DCOIC program is effective. I do think you are right to look for ways to make things better. We can all see room for improvement. But I don't think an extra few weeks at OCS/ODS alone, is the the magic ingredient to the making of a better officer. It's a waste of time - not a total waste, but the time should be spent elsewhere. Two weeks is enough.

Where we seem to agree - is that time in uniform helps. Where our parallel lines seem to stray is - DCO is a reserve program - one weekend a month and two weeks year. No one that is going through ascensions now is actually doing that little by the way. Getting time in uniform as a reservist is tricky. Making the most of the that time is important for the Navy and the reservists. After ascension is completed, I say that time is best spent on the job - the old On the Job Training - cannot be beat. We don't do it anymore.

I'll be candid too, I didn't know that Aviation was the largest operational piece of the Reserves, that being said - I know that no one is coming off the street to fly jets as a DCO, so the fact that they get a two week school to acculturate to becoming an officer as opposed to the 10 week OCS doesn't worry me too much. I doubt the extra 8 weeks at OCS was the driving factor that led our best pilots to win at top gun either.

You may have seen this too, but the few aviation enlisted I've worked with were forced to go to the full A-schools and then, they were never used for active duty. Go figure? We demand they train but don't use them. A-school for Aviation Ordinance or Maintenance or whatever is no short school either.

Most aviation enlisted I've met spent their entire 8 year enlistment sitting at at guess what - a NOSC - not being utilized for what the Navy trained them for. Most didn't reenlist either.

The Navy is very good at demanding sailors attend this training or that training for reservists. It seems the Navy is not as good at implementing actually using them.

Have you run into a Navy Reservist DCO or enlisted that has been or a ship for mob or AT? Back in the the early 2000's - the reserve actual used to send reservists out for two week AT's to ships. Sailors loved it - and there are more good stories about reservists filling these roles than horror stories.

I haven't met one reserve sailor or heard of one in a decade that has been to AT at sea. And when I google it or ask around (intel community anyway), I found out that the Navy only uses 1830 active duty for ship stuff! The Navy does not even entertain the idea of putting and 1835 on a ship...

I agree time in uniform is essential to learning the job. Where I think the training and time should be spent is good old OJT - on the job training.

People complain reservists aren't up to the job, but they aren't getting anytime in the job. I've spent more time on active duty in the Army than I have in the Navy - all from IA... That is not uncommon these days. Think about that for a second - I've got 9 years in the Navy and I have served more active duty time in the Army uniform than I have in the Navy. I went to schools with the Army that they have turned into a distinct new MOS.

I know more about the Army than the Navy after 9 years in the Navy Reserve. I never went to Army boot camp. I was not an Army ascension, but I thrived even as a navy reservist when I mobed. And there are thousands of other Navy Reservist just like me out there. I did attend a 3 month school at Fort Riely to become a Combat Adsvisor - but where I learned learned to be a sand sailor - Army soldier - was through on the job training during deployment with the Army. I hoped into gun turrets the first time in a combat zone. I handled bazooka's for the first time on the job in a combat zone. All while my life and others were at risk. I think the Navy can be a little more inclusive with reservists.

I'd like to see that happen, I'm not sure big Navy see's it that way and I can live with that. We all have our purpose.

I don't think a few more hard weeks at OCS/ODS determines which 1835's or other designators are going to be stellar filling active duty roles in the Navy. I agree stressing people in simulated situations to push them to prepare for combat is a very useful exercise for reservists to undertake. 10 weeks, 5 weeks - I don't see the need for a change in the current DCO Ascension program.

I'm sure we all run into new DCO JO's that we think are total jack wagons. We run into them on active duty too. Hell, that's where butter bar jokes come from. Try not to judge the whole program on an interaction with someone that has 28-30 days in uniform after a year. in the reserve.

A lot sinks in during time out of uniform too. But by the time it's go time for the DCO JO's they are more than prepared to rise to the occasion. They get there. And no place is better to get them up to speed than right on the job.

It is always worth looking at training to see where it can be better. Where I want to see that time happen for reservists is On The Job in uniform.

We all learn more at work by doing than we do in a classroom. Just my two cents for the naysayers that poo poo the DCO program and reservists in general. Use us - you might just be surprised. Big Navy certainly hasn't blinked an eye about using the reserve over the last decade or so - and they got more bang for their buck than they probably expected - albeit - most of us ended up being soldiers not sailors and that - is 100% the Navy's decision.

Have a good weekend all - and Go Pats!

 

[Reservist]

I see a lot wisdom in what you are saying - hope you see a bit in what I say. I suspect we will both get something out of this discussion.

I digress, but I think the dude talking about how he hopes that he or any enlisted he knows never works with me is temporarily out of his mind.... I can tell he is actually a smart person - I see some very clever ideas - but I think he may have taken the bait hook line and sinker and ran with his own ideas a bit too far. Let's real this back in. May be we can all get something out of this.

I think the DCOIC program is effective. I do think you are right to look for ways to make things better. We can all see room for improvement. But I don't think an extra few weeks at OCS/ODS alone, is the the magic ingredient to the making of a better officer. It's a waste of time - not a total waste, but the time should be spent elsewhere. Two weeks is enough.

Where we seem to agree - is that time in uniform helps. Where our parallel lines seem to stray is - DCO is a reserve program - one weekend a month and two weeks year. No one that is going through ascensions now is actually doing that little by the way. Getting time in uniform as a reservist is tricky. Making the most of the that time is important for the Navy and the reservists. After ascension is completed, I say that time is best spent on the job - the old On the Job Training - cannot be beat. We don't do it anymore.

I'll be candid too, I didn't know that Aviation was the largest operational piece of the Reserves, that being said - I know that no one is coming off the street to fly jets as a DCO, so the fact that they get a two week school to acculturate to becoming an officer as opposed to the 10 week OCS doesn't worry me too much. I doubt the extra 8 weeks at OCS was the driving factor that led our best pilots to win at top gun either.

You may have seen this too, but the few aviation enlisted I've worked with were forced to go to the full A-schools and then, they were never used for active duty. Go figure? We demand they train but don't use them. A-school for Aviation Ordinance or Maintenance or whatever is no short school either.

Most aviation enlisted I've met spent their entire 8 year enlistment sitting at at guess what - a NOSC - not being utilized for what the Navy trained them for. Most didn't reenlist either.

The Navy is very good at demanding sailors attend this training or that training for reservists. It seems the Navy is not as good at implementing actually using them.

Have you run into a Navy Reservist DCO or enlisted that has been or a ship for mob or AT? Back in the the early 2000's - the reserve actual used to send reservists out for two week AT's to ships. Sailors loved it - and there are more good stories about reservists filling these roles than horror stories.

I haven't met one reserve sailor or heard of one in a decade that has been to AT at sea. And when I google it or ask around (intel community anyway), I found out that the Navy only uses 1830 active duty for ship stuff! The Navy does not even entertain the idea of putting and 1835 on a ship...

I agree time in uniform is essential to learning the job. Where I think the training and time should be spent is good old OJT - on the job training.

People complain reservists aren't up to the job, but they aren't getting anytime in the job. I've spent more time on active duty in the Army than I have in the Navy - all from IA... That is not uncommon these days. Think about that for a second - I've got 9 years in the Navy and I have served more active duty time in the Army uniform than I have in the Navy. I went to schools with the Army that they have turned into a distinct new MOS.

I know more about the Army than the Navy after 9 years in the Navy Reserve. I never went to Army boot camp. I was not an Army ascension, but I thrived even as a navy reservist when I mobed. And there are thousands of other Navy Reservist just like me out there. I did attend a 3 month school at Fort Riely to become a Combat Adsvisor - but where I learned learned to be a sand sailor - Army soldier - was through on the job training during deployment with the Army. I hoped into gun turrets the first time in a combat zone. I handled bazooka's for the first time on the job in a combat zone. All while my life and others were at risk. I think the Navy can be a little more inclusive with reservists.

I'd like to see that happen, I'm not sure big Navy see's it that way and I can live with that. We all have our purpose.

I don't think a few more hard weeks at OCS/ODS determines which 1835's or other designators are going to be stellar filling active duty roles in the Navy. I agree stressing people in simulated situations to push them to prepare for combat is a very useful exercise for reservists to undertake. 10 weeks, 5 weeks - I don't see the need for a change in the current DCO Ascension program.

I'm sure we all run into new DCO JO's that we think are total jack wagons. We run into them on active duty too. Hell, that's where butter bar jokes come from. Try not to judge the whole program on an interaction with someone that has 28-30 days in uniform after a year. in the reserve.

A lot sinks in during time out of uniform too. But by the time it's go time for the DCO JO's they are more than prepared to rise to the occasion. They get there. And no place is better to get them up to speed than right on the job.

It is always worth looking at training to see where it can be better. Where I want to see that time happen for reservists is On The Job in uniform.

We all learn more at work by doing than we do in a classroom. Just my two cents for the naysayers that poo poo the DCO program and reservists in general. Use us - you might just be surprised. Big Navy certainly hasn't blinked an eye about using the reserve over the last decade or so - and they got more bang for their buck than they probably expected - albeit - most of us ended up being soldiers not sailors and that - is 100% the Navy's decision.

Have a good weekend all - and Go Pats!

Last point on this for me - the Army is struggling to meet recruitment goals but yet it routinely relies on Navy Reservists to make up their short falls to fill IA billets. People are still joining the Navy Reserve for some reason in adequate numbers. We can debate why that is, but I can tell you I think making joining more a hardship by requiring nearly a year of active duty to be a reserve office or enlisted like the Army is doing now, might have something to do with the struggle to meet recruiting goals.

It's worth thinking about.

 

[bluemarlin04]

I think you’re undervaluing the training value of OCS.

It is designed to build you into an Officer.

We are putting too much value into DCOs and giving them commissions without any idea how they’ll perform as officers. Their civilian job plays no role in how they’ll be as an officer.

I saw two reservists fail out of NIOBC. Yes, fail out. The whole time they talked about how they’re engineers in the civilian sector but still failed out.

Also I’m tired of reservists telling me how their stem background is good for intel while simultaneously having zero experience in Navy intel.

Why not send them to an accession program designed to build them into officers? Makes sense to me.

 

[bubblehead]

Word is starting to trickle down that DCOIC is going away in October 19 and that new DCOs will attend the 5-week ODS instead.

DCOIS is an utter waste of time and does a disservice to newly commissioned offers with no military background.

ODS is much better suited to the task.

There is an agreement in the works to possibly allow reservists to complete the course in two chunks, but nothing is final there.

That is a straight up stupid idea. ODS would be completely ineffective if split up in to two weeks.

 

[bubblehead]

I saw two reservists fail out of NIOBC.

Jesus, how embarrassing. Are you sure they did not do it on purpose?

 

[Deleted member 67144 scul]

I've been hearing about this lately. Excellent news! I'd also advocate for non-priors going to ODS before drilling, especially for line officers. When I had initially started the application process, I was expecting to go to OCS, at least as an option. I was getting a lot of contradictory gouge, so I didn't know for certain at the outset it was DCOIC and nothing else. Though disappointing, I stuck with it because my application was largely done by that point excluding interviews and some paperwork, the Navy was my service of choice, and for the challenge of this selection program. I wasn't actually expecting to be selected due to not meeting one or two requirements, and the community is not hurting for people either.

It did work out nicely with the Navy being my service of choice because the Army (and I guess Coast Guard) was the only other option. Air Force isn't currently taking anyone (certainly not civilians, not sure about enlisted) for OTS for non-rated officer AFSCs, and I've aged out for the Marines.

CEC officers sometimes go straight into XO billets and deploy much faster than your pipeline. No 2-3 years of patty cake before doing real work.

Or 4-5 years in my case, which is frustrating.

 

[bluemarlin04]

Jesus, how embarrassing. Are you sure they did not do it on purpose?

They definitely didn’t do it on purpose.

This was the active duty NIOBC and they failed it during the threat/opintel portion. Had a bunch of chances too. Just couldn’t get it to click.

 

[Goodfou]

I see a lot wisdom in what you are saying - hope you see a bit in what I say. I suspect we will both get something out of this discussion.

I digress, but I think the dude talking about how he hopes that he or any enlisted he knows never works with me is temporarily out of his mind.... I can tell he is actually a smart person - I see some very clever ideas - but I think he may have taken the bait hook line and sinker and ran with his own ideas a bit too far. Let's real this back in. May be we can all get something out of this.

I think the DCOIC program is effective. I do think you are right to look for ways to make things better. We can all see room for improvement. But I don't think an extra few weeks at OCS/ODS alone, is the the magic ingredient to the making of a better officer. It's a waste of time - not a total waste, but the time should be spent elsewhere. Two weeks is enough.

Where we seem to agree - is that time in uniform helps. Where our parallel lines seem to stray is - DCO is a reserve program - one weekend a month and two weeks year. No one that is going through ascensions now is actually doing that little by the way. Getting time in uniform as a reservist is tricky. Making the most of the that time is important for the Navy and the reservists. After ascension is completed, I say that time is best spent on the job - the old On the Job Training - cannot be beat. We don't do it anymore.

I'll be candid too, I didn't know that Aviation was the largest operational piece of the Reserves, that being said - I know that no one is coming off the street to fly jets as a DCO, so the fact that they get a two week school to acculturate to becoming an officer as opposed to the 10 week OCS doesn't worry me too much. I doubt the extra 8 weeks at OCS was the driving factor that led our best pilots to win at top gun either.

You may have seen this too, but the few aviation enlisted I've worked with were forced to go to the full A-schools and then, they were never used for active duty. Go figure? We demand they train but don't use them. A-school for Aviation Ordinance or Maintenance or whatever is no short school either.

Most aviation enlisted I've met spent their entire 8 year enlistment sitting at at guess what - a NOSC - not being utilized for what the Navy trained them for. Most didn't reenlist either.

The Navy is very good at demanding sailors attend this training or that training for reservists. It seems the Navy is not as good at implementing actually using them.

Have you run into a Navy Reservist DCO or enlisted that has been or a ship for mob or AT? Back in the the early 2000's - the reserve actual used to send reservists out for two week AT's to ships. Sailors loved it - and there are more good stories about reservists filling these roles than horror stories.

I haven't met one reserve sailor or heard of one in a decade that has been to AT at sea. And when I google it or ask around (intel community anyway), I found out that the Navy only uses 1830 active duty for ship stuff! The Navy does not even entertain the idea of putting and 1835 on a ship...

I agree time in uniform is essential to learning the job. Where I think the training and time should be spent is good old OJT - on the job training.

People complain reservists aren't up to the job, but they aren't getting anytime in the job. I've spent more time on active duty in the Army than I have in the Navy - all from IA... That is not uncommon these days. Think about that for a second - I've got 9 years in the Navy and I have served more active duty time in the Army uniform than I have in the Navy. I went to schools with the Army that they have turned into a distinct new MOS.

I know more about the Army than the Navy after 9 years in the Navy Reserve. I never went to Army boot camp. I was not an Army ascension, but I thrived even as a navy reservist when I mobed. And there are thousands of other Navy Reservist just like me out there. I did attend a 3 month school at Fort Riely to become a Combat Adsvisor - but where I learned learned to be a sand sailor - Army soldier - was through on the job training during deployment with the Army. I hoped into gun turrets the first time in a combat zone. I handled bazooka's for the first time on the job in a combat zone. All while my life and others were at risk. I think the Navy can be a little more inclusive with reservists.

I'd like to see that happen, I'm not sure big Navy see's it that way and I can live with that. We all have our purpose.

I don't think a few more hard weeks at OCS/ODS determines which 1835's or other designators are going to be stellar filling active duty roles in the Navy. I agree stressing people in simulated situations to push them to prepare for combat is a very useful exercise for reservists to undertake. 10 weeks, 5 weeks - I don't see the need for a change in the current DCO Ascension program.

I'm sure we all run into new DCO JO's that we think are total jack wagons. We run into them on active duty too. Hell, that's where butter bar jokes come from. Try not to judge the whole program on an interaction with someone that has 28-30 days in uniform after a year. in the reserve.

A lot sinks in during time out of uniform too. But by the time it's go time for the DCO JO's they are more than prepared to rise to the occasion. They get there. And no place is better to get them up to speed than right on the job.

It is always worth looking at training to see where it can be better. Where I want to see that time happen for reservists is On The Job in uniform.

We all learn more at work by doing than we do in a classroom. Just my two cents for the naysayers that poo poo the DCO program and reservists in general. Use us - you might just be surprised. Big Navy certainly hasn't blinked an eye about using the reserve over the last decade or so - and they got more bang for their buck than they probably expected - albeit - most of us ended up being soldiers not sailors and that - is 100% the Navy's decision.

Have a good weekend all - and Go Pats!

Wow! You went in 17 different directions with this response. One thing I agree with-Go Pats (the Rams shouldn’t even be there).

Side note, Reserve squadrons are all hurting for SELRES Manning. A ton of aviation Sailors are sitting at NOSCs in the Midwest. Also, I’m a DCO and Aviation Maintenance Duty Officer. A small designator but we are around and many go to squadrons-I went straight to one as an Ensign.

 

[xmid]

@Reservist I think you are missing the point. No matter what your opinion is on the matter, BIG NAVY is unhappy with the current product and thinks the change is necessary. They wouldn't make that decision if all the DCO's were functioning and leading "at or above" the level of their active duty peers.

 

[subreservist]

@Reservist I think you are missing the point. No matter what your opinion is on the matter, BIG NAVY is unhappy with the current product and thinks the change is necessary. They wouldn't make that decision if all the DCO's were functioning and leading "at or above" the level of their active duty peers.

Is this true? I'm not seeing any actual info concerning this. The only thing I have seen is the OP commenting about "word is starting to trickle down". Source @Gainful ?

 

[donte9235]

And the prior e guys- OCS is NOTHING like boot camp. Not even Remotely similar.

Can someone elaborate on this? Anyone done both?