No weapons for E-4 and below on watch

[CommodoreMid]

http://www.navytimes.com/news/2010/09/navy-e4-below-barred-from-standing-armed-watch-090510w/

On many levels this is completely asinine. First, it creates a large burden on senior Es and Os that now there are fewer people who can stand a watch. Second, what the hell do you think would happen if the Army/Marines decided their E-4s and below were too junior to use weapons. Really?

On the flip side, how proficient are we as a Navy as a whole with fireams (EOD and SEAL types excluded)? I have had zip point shit weapon training, and that's pretty sad I think as a member of the military. When I was in ROTC, our unit used to send all the 1/c out to get pistol qualled, but by my junior year (I think), Big Navy killed that, as apparently it was "too risky" for midshipmen to be handling weapons.

If incidents like this suggest that our people aren't to be trusted with weapons, why isn't there a bigger push for a thorough weapons qual for everyone at accession? I know the academy kids do it at plebe summer, and apparently at boot camp they have a short fam. Why not do what the Marines do and train up everyone at their accession points to the same (high) standard and make it so everyone gets pistol qualled there instead of waiting until you have time at your first command? It just seems to me that there are multiple things completely messed up about this whole situation apart from the negligent discharges.

 

[usmarinemike]

It appears that a serious deficiency has been uncovered. Away the inefficient corrective actions and computer based training teams.

The Marine Corps has it's fair share of negligent discharges and like shenanigans. It doesnt require a flag officer banning all the kiddies from handling boom sticks though; even temporarily. There wouldn't be a Marine Corps.

On a side note, Marines on ships. Not a bad idea (unless you're the one paying them).

 

[nittany03]

That sound you hear is a Marine Corporal (and his whole fire team) pointing and snickering.

That said, the article says it's temporary, pending investigations into some buffoonery or other. That's different from CNO saying "no weapons to anyone Third Class and below, ever."

 

[A4sForever]

.... When I was in ROTC, our unit used to send all the 1/c out to get pistol qualled, but by my junior year (I think), Big Navy killed that, as apparently it was "too risky" for midshipmen to be handling weapons ...

Funny how perceptions change ... when I was a 2/C Middie, in the span of 5 weeks @ Pendleton/Coronado (the other 4 weeks of summer 'cruise' were spent in Texas getting sailing lessons and 'Aviation Indoc') ... we qualified on the 1911/A1, S&W M10, M-1 Garand, the M1A1, the BAR, the M-14, the M-60, the Mk II grenade, the M79, the M2 Browning ... I think there were some others ... can't remember them all.

No one got hurt/killed ... 'cept a lot of make-believe Viet Cong ...

 

[wlawr005]

http://www.navytimes.com/news/2010/09/navy-e4-below-barred-from-standing-armed-watch-090510w/

On many levels this is completely asinine. First, it creates a large burden on senior Es and Os that now there are fewer people who can stand a watch. Second, what the hell do you think would happen if the Army/Marines decided their E-4s and below were too junior to use weapons. Really?

On the flip side, how proficient are we as a Navy as a whole with fireams (EOD and SEAL types excluded)? I have had zip point shit weapon training, and that's pretty sad I think as a member of the military. When I was in ROTC, our unit used to send all the 1/c out to get pistol qualled, but by my junior year (I think), Big Navy killed that, as apparently it was "too risky" for midshipmen to be handling weapons.

If incidents like this suggest that our people aren't to be trusted with weapons, why isn't there a bigger push for a thorough weapons qual for everyone at accession? I know the academy kids do it at plebe summer, and apparently at boot camp they have a short fam. Why not do what the Marines do and train up everyone at their accession points to the same (high) standard and make it so everyone gets pistol qualled there instead of waiting until you have time at your first command? It just seems to me that there are multiple things completely messed up about this whole situation apart from the negligent discharges.

Being "qualified" to shoot a pistol and being "proficient" with a weapon are two very different things. SEALs/EOD/Marines spend countless hours and thousands of rounds learning to hone their trade. It's simply not cost efficient to train Seaman Jones or LT Johnson how to "proficiently" wield a sidearm, rifle, or machine gun.

Instead, they get a powerpoint, a safety class, and about 50 rounds to prove they won't kill themselves or others while standing watch on the quarterdeck. Given some of the dipshits I've seen carry a weapon, I'm surprised someone hasn't been killed.

 

[eas7888]

Negligent discharges happen to persons of all ranks and ages. Rank really has nothing to do with it. It's the senior leader's responsibility to make sure that the right people are manning the weapon's systems and are adequately trained. Complacency and ignorance are no excuse for negligent discharges.

To be honest, if there really are a large number of negligent discharges by E-4's and below, the last person I want on that weapon is the person who trained the negligent personnel.

Just my $.02

 

[HueyCobra8151]

It is actually difficult to have an ND with a 240B...

Commodore: Weapons training at accession requires a lot of infrastructure that you probably don't have if you don't do it right now.

Ranges with appropriate SDZ (surface danger zone) for the ordnance fired, Range Coaches and Linemen, Qualified Range Safety Officers, and OIC's, Ammo Techs, Corpsmen with safety vehicle(s), Armory, Ammo Dump, Target Shed, Pitts, Trucks to move all this stuff/people, Classroom Instruction, and probably a bunch more stuff I am forgetting.

It's doable, but I'm just saying, there is a lot of stuff that would need to be added to surface facilities that might not otherwise use munitions.

 

[usmarinemike]

It is actually difficult to have an ND with a 240B

I hadn't thought about that. The admiral could have really taken care of the big problem by dictating that the bolts be closed when the ships are in port. Did anybody tell him that?

The dude that shot himself in the foot is just assed out. Don't punish the whole fleet because Barney Fife eventually has to touch his piece when his watch ends.

 

[Brett327]

Weapons training in the Navy is a farce and we should all be professionally embarrassed by this - not because of the E4 who shoots himself in the foot, but because our service doesn't place the proper amount of emphasis on it. The "every Marine a rifleman" credo would serve us well in the Navy. During the recent Taliban attack at Bagram, several gunmen came over the wall right next to where the Prowlers are. Thank God a Marine Prowler squadron was there because the Marines responded, returned fire and saved the day. The outcome would have been very different had a Navy Prowler squadron been there.

Brett

 

[jtmedli]

Weapons training in the Navy is a farce and we should all be professionally embarrassed by this - not because of the E4 who shoots himself in the foot, but because our service doesn't place the proper amount of emphasis on it. The "every Marine a rifleman" credo would serve us well in the Navy. During the recent Taliban attack at Bagram, several gunmen came over the wall right next to where the Prowlers are. Thank God a Marine Prowler squadron was there because the Marines responded, returned fire and saved the day. The outcome would have been very different had a Navy Prowler squadron been there.

Brett

This saddens me.

 

[MIDNJAC]

Weapons training in the Navy is a farce and we should all be professionally embarrassed by this - not because of the E4 who shoots himself in the foot, but because our service doesn't place the proper amount of emphasis on it. The "every Marine a rifleman" credo would serve us well in the Navy. During the recent Taliban attack at Bagram, several gunmen came over the wall right next to where the Prowlers are. Thank God a Marine Prowler squadron was there because the Marines responded, returned fire and saved the day. The outcome would have been very different had a Navy Prowler squadron been there.

Brett

+100. Since I have been on active duty, I have not fired one weapon (aside from blue death and simulated Goshawk guns) in an official capacity. And yes, duty involves a firearm.

 

[Lawman]

I dont care how hard you try. No matter how much Sgt's time you dedicate to it. How many millions you spend researching and developing a training regiment for it. There are some people that should just never ever be trusted with a firearm.

Case in point, we had a guy shoot his boonie cover off his head while training with an M9. They wouldnt even let the guy load ammo after that, they took his weapon away and said shut up and go color. This is the same asshat that recently had a ND in his own house... that happened to go into his leg. Thats right, he F'ing shot himself. Thank god he was as ham fisted at flying as he was with guns because they washed him out a few weeks ago during Gunnery. The simple idea of this guy going from f'ing up with handguns to f'ing up with Hellfires scared the hell out of me.

That is not however an endorsement to abandon firearms training. I almost ruined the somber atmosphere at a funeral while on the Honors Detail because one of the Female Warrants I was there with couldnt unload and clear her M16. She literally handed it to a guy with 2 rounds still in the mag (we load 5 so they jam less) and said "here you do this I forgot how." This bitch is a Scout Pilot. The one and only aircraft we currently shoot M4's out the side of. And she couldnt clear a god damn Rifle. That isnt a cant learn issue like it is with Billy Boonie Cap, thats a flagrant mentality that is throughout the military (Marines Included) of people that dont think their 1000 series tasks are important. We're too busy wasting time with EO and Suicide Prevention campaigns.

 

[phrogdriver]

If officers and chiefs have little, if any, more small arms experience than the junior sailors, what good is a rank-based policy like this?

Perhaps a policy of not handling weapons unless one has fired said weapon in the past year might be more appropriate, but then again, perhaps there wouldn't be enough sailors to stand watch with that in place. Maybe not being able to stand watch until one has completed "weapons safety" on NKO! :icon_tong

It's been over ten years since the Cole incident, which should have woken up big Navy to the need for qualified individuals to guard ships. Guess inertia is more powerful than operational necessity. But at least these sailors have all likely logged a couple hundred hours of EEO and driving safety classes. I'm sure AQ will be deterred by our proficiency in those!

A surface ship doesn't need a damn range to achieve minimal proficiency among its crew--sail out to a Warning Area and shoot at silhouettes off the fantail. Do a shoot during every underway period. Problem solved.

 

[eas7888]

I dont care how hard you try. No matter how much Sgt's time you dedicate to it. How many millions you spend researching and developing a training regiment for it. There are some people that should just never ever be trusted with a firearm.

DING DING DING! Someone's got it.

I really didn't want to say some of that earlier, for fear of coming off as an ass. You did it with more tact than I, good sir.
You can't train the stupidity out of someone, but you can teach an ignorant person. I can accept stupidity, honestly, I can. What I can't accept is lazy incompetence. I see soldiers fresh out of basic training who are having a problem remembering how to load and clear a weapon or immediate corrective actions (SPORTS).

Lawman, you're exactly right. This may sound cold hearted, but if people don't know how to treat each other with respect (EO), they can get a butt stroke upside the head. I have to attend an EO class every 6 months for 4 hours each time. How long do we dedicate to basic rifle marksmanship before we go to the range? About half an hour. It really makes me sick to my stomach. Oh, and Lawman, I hope you had a very serious conversation with that warrant officer.

 

[zippy]

If officers and chiefs have little, if any, more small arms experience than the junior sailors, what good is a rank-based policy like this?

Forcing more senior members to be on duty during shitty watches "to supervise" motivates them to get their house in order quicker.