OCS as a summer cruise?

[CommodoreMid]

Some people in other threads have mentioned the idea of doing some sort of general military training for all NROTC people during summer cruise, either 3rd or 2nd class. I don't know if any of you did this, but at my unit this year we filled out some CNET survey and one of the questions asked if we thought sending NROTC midshipmen to something like OCS one summer. I thought it was a good idea, but I'm curious to see what everyone else thinks. My reasoning is that the Navy side of NROTC is the only group that has no summer training that serves to evaluate college students as future officers. Marine options go to OCS, AF cadets have something after sophomore year, and Army cadets do some leadership camp thingy where they get evaluated after junior year. The Navy does not do this. There are probably subjects that could be best taught in this type of environment that NROTC midshipmen do not otherwise learn, in addition to learning and leading under intense pressure.

 

[pjxc415]

Absolutely a good idea. I just graduated Marine OCS and if Navy were to do something like it, not only would I respect them a whole hell of a lot more, I believe it would make them more professional and squared away officers.

 

[saltpeter]

It's good to see that a gentleman that just earned his butter bars has acquired the wisdom to make the observation that Naval Officer's are other than squared away. You should make General within, oh say, a week. No offense, but getting yelled or marching your cassmates to the chow hall does little to teach leadership. Watch the best leaders, do they blow their cool at a drop of a hat? No, why, because they don't have too. They've earned the respect of their men through being a professonal workplace.

 

[HooverPilot]

Wouldn't a Navy ROTC guy going to OCS obviate the need for any further ROTC since the end result of OCS is a commission?

Just seems to be a dumb idea to me.

 

[Steve Wilkins]

Absolutely a good idea. I just graduated Marine OCS and if Navy were to do something like it, not only would I respect them a whole hell of a lot more, I believe it would make them more professional and squared away officers.

Please explain why a summer OCS program would increase your level of respect for us? What is it that you got at your OCS program that you feel we are obviously lacking? Also, what can a summer program teach us about being professional and squared away that can't be taught year-round at the NROTC unit?

I'm not saying I disagree with your conclusion. I'm just curious as to what your thought process is.

 

[Fezz CB]

Please explain why a summer OCS program would increase your level of respect for us? What is it that you got at your OCS program that you feel we are obviously lacking? Also, what can a summer program teach us about being professional and squared away that can't be taught year-round at the NROTC unit?

Great questions Mr. Wilkins. I mean, I have never been to OCS so its hard to compare to the NROTC cirriculum I just completed. I felt I learned enough to go on and become an Ensign. But of course, actual experience is different than learning to become an officer from books, presentations, and labs.

I was just surfing through the Nav Bios of our current admirals and many of them went through ROTC. So....i dont think there is a huge correlation between the type of training you received as an OC and your success in the Navy. These ppl worked hard to get where they are at (all officers in general) regardless of the various training evolutions they received. And I give them my utmost RESPECT, regardless if they went to OCS, ROTC, USNA, etc.

Anyways, I wonder what other people have to say.

 

[Crowbar]

I'm not saying I agree with what pjxc415 said about being more squared away and such. People who want to be superstars are going to be superstars whether they go through OCS or not. And people who want to be bottom feeders are going to be bottom feeders whether they go through OCS or not.

I do, however, think sending Mids to some sort of OCS-ish event one summer could be extremely beneficial. For most Mids, they have never experienced boot camp or anything similar. So, OCS would be the first time some or most of them were introduced to compound stressors like that. Would it weed them out? Probably not, the weak ones would weed themselves out. Some of the people who have absolutely no place leading others would figure it out and decide to quit (DORs happen, right?). And the staff would help some of the others figure out whether or not being an officer was for them.

Our OCS exists to "train, evaluate, and screen qualified applicants." I hear lots of people (including me) call it a "safety net" to find those who have either made a bad decision about being a leader or just do not have the ability do do it.

 

[THRILLER]

NAVY doesn't have a "weed’er outer camp" (As I call it)

One thing nice about the AFROTC program is the Field Training that we do just prior to our Junior year. If we can’t make it through the camp…we can’t enter the “Upper Class” and more importantly…we can’t commission.

I learned a lot about being a good officer, a leader, motivator, and a follower through the experience. Our Field Training also served as a means for "weeding" out those who could not handle stress or leadership positions.

Wow...I just didn't realize that the NAVY doesn't have a similar camp.
Interesting.

BTW, I'm not trying to start a NROTC vs AFROTC argument..you all know me by now...I'm not like that. Anyway, I actually like the idea of having a "summer cruise". It's something that we don't have here in the AF world. However, I do agree that it would be beneficial to have an OCS type of training for the NROTC.

Peace,

THRILLER

 

[gregsivers]

Wow...I just didn't realize that the NAVY doesn't have a similar camp.
Interesting.

I wouldn't use the word camp to describe it, there are probably better words. But, the first class cruise seems to fit a prospective Ensign better than an OCS atmosphere as I see it. On such a cruise you are tasked to a JO and follow him/her around to see how they do their job. I feel that being immersed in the actual culture serves a better purpose than being PTed all day long and doing land nav and the like. The Navy doesn't have the same requirements of an officer as the Marines. But then, I'm only an Ensign, so what do I know.

 

[Fly Navy]

Absolutely a good idea. I just graduated Marine OCS and if Navy were to do something like it, not only would I respect them a whole hell of a lot more, I believe it would make them more professional and squared away officers.

This is what I read here: "Blah blah blah blah blah I'm a stereotypical jarhead Marine with a huge head". Honestly, do you have any other, valid reason for sending NROTC to OCS?

 

[Fly Navy]

People who want to be superstars are going to be superstars whether they go through OCS or not. And people who want to be bottom feeders are going to be bottom feeders whether they go through OCS or not.

Precisely. It has zero correlation with how "hard" you are because of the indoctrination training you went through. History has taught us this repeatedly. Some of our best Generals and Admirals were "bottom-feeders" at their respective accession sources.

I do, however, think sending Mids to some sort of OCS-ish event one summer could be extremely beneficial. For most Mids, they have never experienced boot camp or anything similar. So, OCS would be the first time some or most of them were introduced to compound stressors like that. Would it weed them out? Probably not, the weak ones would weed themselves out. Some of the people who have absolutely no place leading others would figure it out and decide to quit (DORs happen, right?). And the staff would help some of the others figure out whether or not being an officer was for them.

Most NROTC units have a week long indoc before freshman year. Is it enough? I don't know... there may be some benefit to additional OCS type training. Then again, there may not be. I found though, at least in my experience, that there were those who "got it" at the week long indoc, and those who didn't. Unfortunately, the 4 years of NROTC didn't weed out all those that didn't. OCS doesn't always weed them out either.

I agree with what was said earlier. A good 1/C cruise is far more beneficial. They need to revamp the cruise "syllabus" and I think more benefit will come from there.

 

[THRILLER]

wouldn't use the word camp to describe it.

Agreed...our Summer Field Training was more like jail

But, the first class cruise seems to fit a prospective Ensign better than an OCS atmosphere as I see it. On such a cruise you are tasked to a JO and follow him/her around to see how they do their job. I feel that being immersed in the actual culture serves a better purpose than being PTed all day long and doing land nav and the like. The Navy doesn't have the same requirements of an officer as the Marines. But then, I'm only an Ensign, so what do I know.

After hearing your description of the Summer Cruise, the AF does have something similar to it in AFROTC. They are called summer PDT's (Professional Development Training). PDT's for Upper classmen are curtailed to their AFSC upon commissioning. However, you have to pass Field Training to be an upper classmen and go on a PDT as a Junior/Senior.

As far as my perspective goes, I think it's better to have both a PDT (Summer Cruise) and some sort of Basic Training. Believe me; I saw some of the most pansy cadets at Field Training who deserved to get the boot right out of FT. Some AF Detachments send people to camp who should never be allowed to be an Officer. Although Field Training is not a "solve-all-end-all", I think it serves as a good “checks and balance” system. The AF has a saying that you are an “Airman first”. All Enlisted folks who join the AF have to go through basic training. The same goes for AFROTC Cadets.

Then...upon completing FT and making it through, you are allowed to go on your PDT for your AFSC (future job assignment).

Peace,

THRILLER

 

[virtu050]

well i guess i'm one of the few people who've had the benefit/misfortune of attending both NROTC and OCS.. (long story)

Having gone through both I can say that there are as many differences as similarities.
Disclaimer: the following is from my experiences at my ROTC unit and OCS class... others may be different.


Differences:
1. PT was WAY harder at OCS. The DI at ROTC wasn't allowed to make you push.. just yelled at you a lot of if you weren't squared away.

2. You have a lot more class time in ROTC and as a result learn more.

3. CORTRAMID/Summer Cruise during ROTC is a blast and something the OCS guys don't get to do. As a result the ROTC guys have a better idea of what life is like on a destroyer/carrier/avation/marine corps etc. than the OCS guys do

4. OCS emphasizes more on attention to detail and situational awareness. For example I was IP'ing my civies for months after OCS... and the way they make you yell "good morning sir" at a DI a hundred yards away. As a result of RLP's OCS grads I think probably keep a sharper uniform than the typical ROTC grad.. at least right after graduation.

5. I got sailing qualed during ROTC... at OCS you just go on a coulpe Yard Patrol rides.. mmm Gedunk

6. I learned more drill in OCS than I did in 4 years at ROTC. In ROTC you don't even do rifle drills unless you're on the drill team.

7. Now the big question on leadership.... Keep in mind that ROTC you only meet once a week.. maybe twice if you PT. But you also get your leadership billet for the entire semester. So if you are the BNCO (battalion commanding officer) you have that responsibility for 14-16 weeks. Whereas a REGCOM (regimental commander at OCS) would only get his 2 weeks during the Candio phase. But if you factor "face time" you're at OCS every day.. where in ROTC you only meet once or twice a week.
though I'm sure the key leadership positions probably put in a lot of hours during non-drill days as well for planning.

During ROTC you might've had the responsibility of planning a dining out. Where in OCS you would just attend. Along the same lines... I was part of a NROTC paintball exercise that included navigation, radios etc. I'm sure that took a lot of planning and leadership... something like that you can't exactly fit into an OCS syllabus.

So from a leadership prospective I think you have more time to nurture your skills in ROTC. Where in OCS the only real leadership training you might get is from being section leader a couple times and during your candio phase.

So to sum up this garbled mess of a post.... I think in ROTC you have the advantage of being able to see the Navy/Marine Corps in all aspects and points of view. At best you are part-time military and as such it is easy to think of yourself as such. Leadership possibilities are good if you seek those billets and challenge yourself. In OCS, you have the fortune/misfortune of having followership beat into you by the DI's who have total authority over you. By being a good follower you can learn to be a good leader.

Doing OCS for a summer cruise would be redundant to your ROTC training. Might not get as much out of it because you already know how to wear a uniform and how to march and you know more about the Navy than you'd be learning in the classes. Factor those things out and essentially you'd just be going to PT, and learn chow hall procedures.

 

[Fly Navy]

2. You have a lot more class time in ROTC and as a result learn more.

More time in class and more time in program to mature and learn.

4. OCS emphasizes more on attention to detail and situational awareness. For example I was IP'ing my civies for months after OCS... and the way they make you yell "good morning sir" at a DI a hundred yards away. As a result of RLP's OCS grads I think probably keep a sharper uniform than the typical ROTC grad.. at least right after graduation.

Depends on your unit. And it certainly only applies right after graduation. It all seems to even out after some time.

6. I learned more drill in OCS than I did in 4 years at ROTC. In ROTC you don't even do rifle drills unless you're on the drill team.

That is your NROTC unit's fault. We did rifle drill all 4 years.

7. Now the big question on leadership.... Keep in mind that ROTC you only meet once a week.. maybe twice if you PT. But you also get your leadership billet for the entire semester. So if you are the BNCO (battalion commanding officer) you have that responsibility for 14-16 weeks. Whereas a REGCOM (regimental commander at OCS) would only get his 2 weeks during the Candio phase. But if you factor "face time" you're at OCS every day.. where in ROTC you only meet once or twice a week.
though I'm sure the key leadership positions probably put in a lot of hours during non-drill days as well for planning.

Senior year, both my NROTC billets were full-time, not just once a week at NROTC lab. Your mileage may vary.

I was part of a NROTC paintball exercise that included navigation, radios etc. I'm sure that took a lot of planning and leadership... something like that you can't exactly fit into an OCS syllabus.

That's just cool.

 

[USN99]

Upon further reflection ....

The "NROTC OCS-type summer cruise" idea seems acceptable on the surface. And I have pondered the Plebe Summer practice that goes on at the USNA. I see the value of a basic military training regimen early, I also can't see the value of making it six weeks and supervised by 2/c mids (USNA). In a Navy of constrained resources, and some institutional ambivalence toward NROTC, I would put my budgetary resources not into an OCS-type summer cruise but build and shape the summer training program around 1/c cruise.

What many have described here as NROTC freshman indoc (1 week duration) seems like an acceptable regimen, clearly affordable; I endorse it. Also, from my personal experience (when CORTRAMID was 6 weeks long and the 2/c cruise), CORTRAMID contained enough OCS-type stuff which was built into the 3 weeks of aviation indoc (yes, 3 weeks and a minimum of four flights- one of which was a jet) and 3 weeks of amphibious warfare indoc (included an amphibious landing and field exercises under the tutelage of the 7th Marines) plus sub indoc and special warfare indoc too.

I would put my budgetary and fleet scheduling eggs into the 1/C cruise basket. In these pages have been written some dismal 1/c cruise experiences where the JOs were indifferent to the Mids. I have a theory and an idea to enhance the 1/c cruise.

- According to the latest Navy BES/POM, they expect in FY06 and beyond to commission approximately 900 from USNA and 900 from NROTC. This represents about 1800 1/c mids that need some quality time in ships and squadrons. Plus another set of 1800 mids also being scheduled for their earlier shipboard cruise (today the NROTC 2/c cruise; USNA Youngster Cruise). I assert that this is too many mids to schedule in too few ships. The result is cruises which are too short (4 weeks) and on some ships which don't have much underway time.
- Radical proposal - The Passed Midshipman
-- Way back in the day, a Passed Midshipman was a USNA grad that went to the fleet as a Mid for some period of time (measured in years). They subsequently became "qualified" and were promoted to Ensign. This practice is, of course, obsolete and was discarded.
-- 21st Century version - Reschedule NROTC summer cruises so the NROTC 1/c cruise takes place (for May/June grads) after graduation and after the USNA Mids have disembarked from their 1/c cruise. This leaves only 900 NROTC 1/c "Passed Midshipmen" to schedule for some quality time on ships whose schedules contain a significant proportion of underway time. Proposed duration - 6 to 10 weeks for the shipboard part.
-- What to do after the May/June graduation until the USNA 1/c mids disembark? This interregnum after graduation could be used to insert another summer cruise built around courses of instruction formulated for Mids who will eventually become shipboard DivOs, i.e., MPA, DCA, CDC Watch Off, etc. etc., etc.. The facilities could be at existing Navy Training Facilities (this ameliorates or alleviates the heads & beds factor); instructors could come from the NROTC Units (they would be back at their Units before the Fall Semester commenced). Syllabii could be based on or derived from existing JO courses. Duration? Probably a few weeks (3 - 4 weeks, commence in late June or July); timed to end when the USNA mids vacate the ships.
-- Of course, the NROTC Mids would be on active duty with pay to match during this elongated set of summer cruises after May/June graduation. And I would envision that they could be commissioned aboard their ships & squadrons as soon as they complete the cruise. Air/Sub/SWO selections could have already been made before or while they are embarked on this super-cruise. This super-cruise would be a pass/fail.
-- As a budgetary constraint, there could probably be no summer cruise between the freshman and sophmore years.

The objections to this I can see would be:
- NROTC instructors won't want to be bothered by teaching another course of instruction at a Navy installation.
- CNET won't even begin to consider assembling a DivOff type course for 1/C Mids. They will object to investing in the time and staff needed to assemble the courses; they will object to making any space available at existing Navy installations for a student body of about 900.
- No one could ever begin to imagine that commissioning could take place some weeks after college graduation (ask the approximately 800-900 OCS grads about commissioning well after college graduation).
- And frankly, CNET is probably ambivalent to changing anything or investing any more resources into NROTC. But it does give one cause to wonder, how the Navy can own and operate its own four-year college and provide four quality summer cruises to one-third of its new Ensigns while one third gets only about 12 weeks of summer cruises (NROTC); one third gets 14 weeks of OCS and no summer cruises. If the USNA formula is worthy of its cost, its worthy of replicating as much as possible.

In summary, this is pretty radical, probably too extraordinary and far-out for consideration. Nevertheless, NROTC mids don't need more OCS-type basic military regimen. They need quality at-sea cruises.