OCS as a summer cruise?

[pjxc415]

Please explain why a summer OCS program would increase your level of respect for us? What is it that you got at your OCS program that you feel we are obviously lacking? Also, what can a summer program teach us about being professional and squared away that can't be taught year-round at the NROTC unit?

I'm not saying I disagree with your conclusion. I'm just curious as to what your thought process is.

Okay the opinion I give you guys is from a Marine MIDN 1/c perspective. The sarcastic comments about me becoming a general in a week are not necessary. I know that there are outstanding officers in both the Navy in Marine Corps, as well as the not so good type in both branches. I have the utmost respect for many Navy officers, especially my most recent XO who was probably the best leader I have encountered in my limited military experience. I learned invaluable leadership tools from him that I hope to one day put to use myself. Please do not think I intend to give any disrespect to the Navy, it is the greatest Navy in the history of the world, and has very capable leaders.

That being said, from my personal experience (and this may not be nationwide within NROTC units or Navy/Marine Corps wide), is that in general Marines returning from OCS are a more tight-knit group of Mids and in general keep themselves more squared away than the Navy kids as a whole, which in turn keeps the professionalism at a higher level for the Marine mids. Don't let this statement detract from the fact that there are Navy mids that are more squared away and perform at a higher level than Marine mids, but again as a group I see performance levels higher and more professionalism from a group standpoint on the Marine side. I can not speak for happens in the fleet, I have never experienced it other than at Cortramid and 2/c cruise, which really doesn't mean much, so those of you who are out there can enlighten the rest of us. I do believe that if Navy had an OCS for ROTC mids, the sense of discipline, professionalism, and camaraderie would be at higher levels. My best friend here, a Navy mid, agrees with me. So what do ya'll think? And please don't give me comments about how I'm going to make general in a week, that type of sarcasm is seriously unnecessary and in my opinion unprofessional.

And Saltpeter, so you know, getting yelled out and marching our classmates to the chow hall did not directly teach leadership. The chaotic environment of OCS, along with the sleep deprivation, physically enduring tests, and leadership evaluations test us to ensure we will be able to operate in a combat environment and that we wont buckle under the stress. I honestly can't tell you how much i learned about leadership at OCS, we'll see when I get to TBS and the fleet. But being instilled with Marine Corps values, and reinforcing the fact that integrity is the cornerstone principle to being a Marine Corps officer, as well as enduring all that OCS BS, has done wonders for me as an individual and for my fellow Marines as a group. Feel free to dump on OCS, but being a grad I know it is effective, necessary, hard as hell, and I wouldn't have it any other way.

 

[etnuclearsailor]

If it ain't broke...

I'm a STA 21 OC in the NROTC, and I see a lot of sh!tty MIDN rolling right through the program. I'm not sure if a brief OCS-type period would weed them out or not.
For the person who asked if an OCS trip would negate the entire NROTC curriculum:
In the USMC model, OCS is a place which has several different courses. There is the Platoon Leaders' Course and Officer Candidate Class (both for non- NROTC candidates) and the Bulldog course. Bulldog is only 6 weeks (versus 12 for OCC I believe) and it does not end in a commission in most cases due to the candidates/ MIDN still needing to finish their senior year. I expect what the OP was suggesting was a shortened OCS style course for MIDN would be a short course.
STA 21 OC's go to NSI before going to our NROTC units. NSI is much less demanding than OCS, but it is challenging. So OC's have boot camp and NSI under our belts when we get in, while the MIDN are not exposed to extended stays in environments with daily inspections, reduced/no liberty, and stress compounds. However, in the end, it all comes out in the wash.

 

[Goober]

For the most part, the "Navy weed'em out course" = 1st JO tour. You'll quickly establish yourself as one of a couple types:
A. Knows his sh!t, "gets it," and takes care of his folks
B. Knows his sh!t but is a self-serving b@stard
C. Generally worthless and would probably be found licking a window on the short bus if he weren't actually required to be present at the squadron

A gets a reputation within his/her community and is summarily taken care of by those can affect their career
B gets a reputation as a one-way and is generally left to twist in the wind when they finally need help from someone
C, similarly yet strikingly different than the case with A, is also summarily "taken care of" as well and usually invited to find a new line of work

Just like many training evolutions and commands, such as it is with the alphabet: it pays to come in first.

 

[Sabre170]

Please explain why a summer OCS program would increase your level of respect for us? What is it that you got at your OCS program that you feel we are obviously lacking? Also, what can a summer program teach us about being professional and squared away that can't be taught year-round at the NROTC unit?

I'm not saying I disagree with your conclusion. I'm just curious as to what your thought process is.

I think a thought process might be that at ROTC you have the "world" to fall back on and only have to act like a military during class and other ROTC events. At OCS you are "military" all the time and the DIs seem to have a great way of teaching discipline, customs and courtesies, military bearing, decision making, taking the initiative, etc... all the time.

The time I spent in ROTC, their were very few who thought of themselves as anything but a college student/civilian. OCS tries to strip that away and show you that you are in the military now. Don’t get me wrong, there are some really good Officers that come out of ROTC, and the academy and OCS both have some really crappy Officers that make it through, but in my humble opinion I think OCS does a better job at instilling pride of one’s service.

 

[HighDimension]

Alright, I'll start off with a disclaimer: I'm only a midshipman right now so I am drawing from no vast wealth of knowledge in the fleet. Knowing that you can take my opinion for what it is worth!

I think that a NROTC OCS for Navy Options would be a good idea for a couple different reasons.

1. Cohesion- Like mentioned above many Marine Options return from OCS with a bond that really can't be matched. Now, this is not to say that there is not a bond among the Navy Option Midshipman, but these Marine Options know that they are all going to go through the same 6 weeks of hell. To share an experience like that with your fellow Midshipman would definitely seem to bring the bond closer.

2. Standardization- Alright, so OCS and NROTC maybe somewhat redundant to each other when it comes to what they teach. First, there is a standard cirriculum for NROTC but there is no guarantee that you will get all of the leadership experience that you need. Granted, you can learn a lot once you get to the fleet (from what I've been told) but wouldn't a common event for NROTC Navy Options provide a solid, standardized way to learn and exercise leadership?

3. Challenge- This sort of ties into #1 but at the same time it is a little different. I don't know about other units but the only real challenge I have here is time management and even then its not overly demanding. I think if you implement something OCS-style you could provide an experience that will really cause you to demand something of yourself. Again, comparing it to the Marine OCS, I have hear many people come back saying they learned a lot about themselves because of the challenges involved. I doubt that a freshman indoc really provided that much of a challenge. ( Unless you were in mules83's platoon, he was a slavedriver! )

I'm sure I could type a lot more about this, but I think I probably typed too much already. I know that short posts get more attention but oh well! Before I get too much criticism, I realize that this is the Navy, not the Marine Corps. I just wanted to use a couple of examples. So maybe a Navy OCS-Style summer course could prove beneficial!

 

[CommodoreMid]

Damn this came back from beyond the grave...

 

[teufelhund0311]

Hmmm...

my limited military experience

God knows, the fleet is just like a NROTC unit...yeah.

 

[etnuclearsailor]

I was looking at the dates to see who was the jerk who resurrected this thread... and it was ME!!!
I'm sorry everyone. I didn't realize this was such an old topic.

 

[sickboy]

I've always been fond of the idea of sending MIDN to Great Lakes for a short stay. Not only do they get to experience compound stressors, but they also learn a few useful thing. Damage Control comes to mind.

 

[navy09]

Wow, brought it back after 1.5+ years.

I'd never seen this thread, so here are my two cents. Personally, I'd rather spend a month visiting cool ports in 7th Fleet than getting yelled at in OCS. I know that Navy ROTC guys are the only ones that don't go through training like this, but is there anything wrong with that?

I know that OCS-type training is good for fostering camaraderie and "weeding out" some people who are particularly horrible at performing under pressure. I really don't believe that getting marched around and shining shoes teaches much leadership at all (seems like that stuff is more designed to train enlisted recruits about followership- not leadership), and there are many who can put up with it for a relatively short amount of time (i.e. it only weeds out the very worst).

I don't see how much the leadership training and professional knowledge accumulated through four years in the NROTC program could be significantly augmented by 9 weeks (or however long it is now) in OCS.

 

[Tactical387]

Im not sure about this subject. I am in the process of finishing up marine ocs, and have never done navy rotc, but I did do Army rotc. I can tell you one thing- the Navy officers that I have met are miles above some of the guys that got commissioned in my army rotc unit. The "thrash till you die" style of indoc'ing officers works most of the time, but it is NOT the only way to make a good officer. -If it isn't broke, dont fix it.

-That being said, I think it would be useful to have a kind of shadowing program between midshipmen about to commission and the NCO's that they will lead. Send them for a few months to whatever specialty they are looking at in the navy and let the NCOs evaluate their leadership ability. I know its not really related to OCS or anything like that, but it seems more applicable to me... idk just my opinion.

 

[Gatordev]

Since you resurrected the thread...

I've always been fond of the idea of sending MIDN to Great Lakes for a short stay. Not only do they get to experience compound stressors, but they also learn a few useful thing. Damage Control comes to mind.

Other than just the good deal experience (which can be interesting), why would it benefit mids to learn DC when they're not going to use it for another 3 years? By the way, even many aviators learn DC, so it's not like we're not exposed to it.

 

[jollygreen07]

Having been on both sides of the coin, so to speak, (military school/ROTC commission) I can say that I learned a helluva lot more about leadership actually being immersed in it while on my midshipman cruises. My 1/C cruise was especially helpful. Of course, I can only speak for myself, but I learned alot more about leadership by seeing and participating in the routines of a warship during its normal routine than I ever did getting yelled at or pt'd.

OCS has it's place for the services that utilize it. But, and correct me if i'm wrong here, the NROTC has been functioning essentially the same for a long time. I reiterate what so many have said before me: If it aint broke, why fix it?

 

[raptor10]

At CORTRAMID Midshipmen do go through a damage control course and a firefighting course (at least the in San Diego).

 

[navy09]

-That being said, I think it would be useful to have a kind of shadowing program between midshipmen about to commission and the NCO's that they will lead. Send them for a few months to whatever specialty they are looking at in the navy and let the NCOs evaluate their leadership ability. I know its not really related to OCS or anything like that, but it seems more applicable to me... idk just my opinion.

The 2/C cruise (after sophomore year) is designed to give MIDN an appreciation for enlisted life. You follow the E's around, sleep in their berthing, eat on the mess decks, etc.