OCS as a summer cruise?

[BackOrdered]

I don't see how much the leadership training and professional knowledge accumulated through four years in the NROTC program could be significantly augmented by 9 weeks (or however long it is now) in OCS.

I agree, but in a different light.

OCS teaches how to be an officer, however I'm under the belief that if one expects OCS is teach them all there is to know about leadership without any practical leadership experience or effort beforehand, they are in trouble. Therefore, when they select OCS applicants it is under the impression from their application that they have some leadership qualities of their own already that can be refined at OCS. Their is still intuition, wisdom, knowledge, communication, and people skills found only through real world experience, hence the reason OCS works. It isn't made to make leaders from the ground up, but to refine them. Ultimately, no matter what commissioning source you are part of, the burden of leadership development is on the individual. Leadership development takes years to know and a lifetime to master.

 

[sickboy]

At CORTRAMID Midshipmen do go through a damage control course and a firefighting course (at least the in San Diego).

At Norfolk we did a DC Wet. That's it, it was a complete joke compared to what we do at Boot. The only reason that I think it should be addressed is that if there is a causualty while the NROTC are involved with, they should have the professional and practical knowledge to deal with it. SWO's esspecially, they go straight to the ship.

My point is that when it comes to the type of situation where this training is needed, not all our officers will have it. I don't know if they do this at OCS or not.

 

[Gatordev]

My point is that when it comes to the type of situation where this training is needed, not all our officers will have it. I don't know if they do this at OCS or not.

And what are you basing this info off of? Your experience at Boot Camp? Anyone and everyone who gets attached to a surface ship goes through Shipboard Fire Fighting school. I can't speak for the airwing, but even aviators attached to small boys go through this. PLUS all aviators go through Aviation Shipboard Fire Fighting. It's not like we aren't exposed.

 

[FLYTPAY]

Absolutely a good idea. I just graduated Marine OCS and if Navy were to do something like it, not only would I respect them a whole hell of a lot more, I believe it would make them more professional and squared away officers.

Congrats on graduating Marine OCS! Now what else can I do to earn your respect there combat- experienced 2ndLieutenant? Want me to draw a map for you so you can find the BX? Oh yeah, I almost forgot, gimme ten.

Wouldn't a Navy ROTC guy going to OCS obviate the need for any further ROTC since the end result of OCS is a commission?
Just seems to be a dumb idea to me.

Second that.....stupid idea.

The 2/C cruise (after sophomore year) is designed to give MIDN an appreciation for enlisted life. You follow the E's around, sleep in their berthing, eat on the mess decks, etc.

Or paint the #3 engine room on the USS De Wert for the 3rd Class who is getting out of the Navy in a week.

 

[BACONATOR]

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[Tactical387]

The 2/C cruise (after sophomore year) is designed to give MIDN an appreciation for enlisted life. You follow the E's around, sleep in their berthing, eat on the mess decks, etc.

Is this only at the academy?

 

[navy09]

Is this only at the academy?

No, I'm ROTC- Academy guys do it too. I think cruises are (generally) one of the best deals of those two programs (ROTC/USNA). They are also (generally) an invaluable training program.

 

[MIDNJAC]

Its been said before and I'll say it again.....there is no purpose for this, and the extra expense to the Navy and the extra man-hours on the OCS end it would require would not justify the benefits. There is a very common misconception, especially among junior E's that I have talked to, that NROTC mids don't do anything. That couldn't be further from the truth. For any mid worth his/her future commission, NROTC becomes a huge part of your life and is far more than simply a couple PT sessions /week and NS classes. I really can't think of anything that I haven't learned in 5 yrs of NROTC that I would in some condensed 10-11 week OCS session. You have 2-3 cruises to familiarize yourself with how the fleet actually works, you get a ton of interaction w/ the enlisted side of the house (on all cruises), you WILL interact with a lot of Chief's/LDO's/WO's etc (who will no doubt impart upon you their pearls of wisdom), and the whole thing IMHO makes all the BS you deal with throughout the year worthwhile. Take away one of those cruises for some senior O's policy masturbation exercise (ie sending mids to OCS), and I would think you would lose a lot of valuable experience, just to simply gain a second (albeit more extended) indoc session of questionable value. Just my .02, FWIW

 

[loadtoad]

I think this would be a good idea. Having a program similar to the Marines would help in the professionalism of some of the commissioning sources.


Not going to pick on anybody but there is a certain commissioning source which has an abnormally high ratio of Ensigns who do not know what the inside of a barber shop looks like or how to look professional when wearing the uniform. An officer should be an example to others...

Maybe a OCS/PLC type program would help?

Concerning dress and appearance I ask myself this: Why are the Marines so squared away and why does it seem the Navy OCS Ensigns in general are more squared away?

 

[MIDNJAC]

Not going to pick on anybody but there is a certain commissioning source which has an abnormally high ratio of Ensigns who do not know what the inside of a barber shop looks like or how to look professional when wearing the uniform. An officer should be an example to others...

I presume you are referring to OCS here?

I wouldn't confuse the a**-stickism of some OCS grads w/ professionalism. Its like freshman MIDN all over again......

Then again, you have probably seen a more diverse group of former mids than I have, so maybe I'm just off base....

(no offense to the OCS types....I think in general they are just as squared away as everyone else)

 

[jollygreen07]

I think this would be a good idea. Having a program similar to the Marines would help in the professionalism of some of the commissioning sources.


Not going to pick on anybody but there is a certain commissioning source which has an abnormally high ratio of Ensigns who do not know what the inside of a barber shop looks like or how to look professional when wearing the uniform. An officer should be an example to others...

Maybe a OCS/PLC type program would help?

Concerning dress and appearance I ask myself this: Why are the Marines so squared away and why does it seem the Navy OCS Ensigns in general are more squared away?

Well, I guess you are either talking about NROTC or USNA when you name a commissioning source that produces ensigns who "do not know what the inside of a barber shop looks like or how to look professional when wearing the uniform."

You are entitled to your opinion. I knew a few guys who used to say stuff like what I just quoted out of your post when I was in college. They were very squared away. Most of them were marine contracts. They had spit-shined shoes, high and tights and were pt maniacs. They were also douche bags. It says you are in primary, and I give you the respect you deserve from someone like me who's not even classed up for API yet.

Wait.. That word I just typed.. respect...

I don't think that your haircut or your commissioning source can determine how much of that you get from those you lead and follow. Appearance goes a long way. You can improve appearance. You are a dick forever.

 

[navy09]

Concerning dress and appearance I ask myself this: Why are the Marines so squared away and why does it seem the Navy OCS Ensigns in general are more squared away?

Dude, this isn't a pissing contest between OCS and NROTC. I've never been to API, but I'm not very surprised by what you say. The main reason for the difference is probably because OCS grads are still really new to the game, so wearing a uniform and getting that ultra-short boot haircut are still fun and cool for them. It’s all good- but just remember that there’s a lot more to being a good officer than having a high and tight and half a can of starch in your uniform.

 

[Gatordev]

Concerning dress and appearance I ask myself this: Why are the Marines so squared away and why does it seem the Navy OCS Ensigns in general are more squared away?

Concerning the quote above, I ask myself this: Why is someone who's only seen a training command making such a sweeping generalization?

Let me put it another way: I think you're wrong. But as was said, this thread isn't a wang contest between OCS and "other." There's winners and losers from both. I happen to agree w/ MIDNJAC. Overall, an additional OCS would be a waste of time.

 

[loadtoad]

Jolleygreen - Okay bad post on my part. Let me try to convey myself a little better.
First I wasn’t trying to get in a pissing contest with the commissioning sources. I do not think one is better than the other and they all have their strong points as well as faults. ALL of them produce good officer and BAD officers. However, I will stand by saying that there are WAY too many ensigns running around looking like a bag of ass and are an embarrassment. If you look like sh!t in uniform, do not know how to say "yes sir" to an instructor and are late to classes constantly then yeah, I will say that you probably are not going to make that good of a JO. Call it a... hunch... I am not saying spit shine your shoes and keep a high and tight. Just don’t have hair growing over your ears standing outside with your cover off, sunglasses on top of your head and your khaki shirt nearly coming un-tucked in the back. You are an officer, set the example. If you think I am a “douche” or a “dick” for thinking this so be it but it’s the truth.

Gatordev – Your right, I have only seen a training command on the officer side of the house. However, I have served under quite a few when I was enlisted and I will say the officers that couldn’t even set the example w/dress and appearance were dropping the ball in most other areas. It went hand in hand more times than not. I guess when you went through you had a different experience then I have had so far.

The whole point of my original post is that so far I see very little of this from the Marine side of the house. Why are the Marine 2lt’s dress and appearance on average better than the Ensigns? Is it their OCS/PLC program, TBS or just the culture of the Marines? Should the Navy make a program like this? I don’t know, it’s above my paygrade….
What I do know is there were too many ensigns sitting around in the A-pool who didn’t even know how to wear their uniforms correctly. It was pathetic…

Although I think there are a lot of people who need to fix themselves. The majority of the Ensigns I have met are good guys/gals and I really enjoy working with them.

 

[Gatordev]

Gatordev – Your right, I have only seen a training command on the officer side of the house. However, I have served under quite a few when I was enlisted and I will say the officers that couldn’t even set the example w/dress and appearance were dropping the ball in most other areas. It went hand in hand more times than not. I guess when you went through you had a different experience then I have had so far.

The whole point of my original post is that so far I see very little of this from the Marine side of the house. Why are the Marine 2lt’s dress and appearance on average better than the Ensigns? Is it their OCS/PLC program, TBS or just the culture of the Marines? Should the Navy make a program like this? I don’t know, it’s above my paygrade….
What I do know is there were too many ensigns sitting around in the A-pool who didn’t even know how to wear their uniforms correctly. It was pathetic…

Although I think there are a lot of people who need to fix themselves. The majority of the Ensigns I have met are good guys/gals and I really enjoy working with them.

Fair enough, and I'd say that OCS by itself has nothing to do w/ the way Marines are always "presentable." It's, like you mentioned, part of the culture, right or wrong. Not everyone is a bag of ass, and not all the "great JOs" are spit-shined.

IMO, and it's not worth much, an Ensign probably has less room to look "bad" than a salty senior JO at the end of his first tour. I don't know what you saw as an enlisted nor what community you came from, but the argument is kind of subjective w/ so many unknowns. They may have been a bag of ass. Then again, I've seen salty JOs that have had pale white LT bars on their flight suit and really ratty (the correct term is "salty") Det patches. According to one CO, they were presenting a bad uniform. But there's plenty of Chiefs and blue shirts that gladly followed those same JOs. So it's all a matter of perspective.

I agree, if you're going to put on a uniform like khakis, look presentable, but my initial reaction to your post was because I don't think you can pin it on just one commissioning source.