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Officer Promotion Overhaul

Brett327

Brett327

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Most of the stuff that's applicable to URL designators has already been in place for the past couple board cycles. You can see in the AZ/IZ/BZ stats that they're beginning to select qualified people with their milestones early, regardless of their zones. There are other changes to the FITREP/EVAL system coming in FY20 that will be more revolutionary.

I just came from the O5 Commanders Conference w/ CNAF. Lots of interesting initiative and updates from N98 and PERS-43 that I'll have to ruminate on for now, but I'll post the good stuff here in a few days.
 
P3 F0

P3 F0

Well-Known Member
None
Brett327 said:
I just came from the O5 Commanders Conference w/ CNAF. Lots of interesting initiative and updates from N98 and PERS-43 that I'll have to ruminate on for now, but I'll post the good stuff here in a few days.
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You talking about stuff not a part of the overhaul? I'll be interested to see it.
 
S

SemiLateral

Member
Some mitigation of the "up or out" will be interesting to see in action. Ideally, it would let non command interested folks who are still great at what they do keep contributing.
 
snake020

snake020

Contributor
“I used to say if (Facebook CEO) Mark Zuckerberg woke up one day and decided to join the Army, the best I could do was make him an O-2,” he said. “There was no way to have him come in with the stature his professional abilities demand.”

Should anyone trust Zuck as an O-6 line officer in the field? Cyber is not JAG/medical

It will also be interesting how up or out going away will affect the rest of the pipeline. Will it create longer timelines for the general officer population to promote with clogs in the pipeline? Seemed to be what I observed during my exchange with the Royal Australian Navy.
 
Spekkio

Spekkio

He bowls overhand.
SemiLateral said:
Some mitigation of the "up or out" will be interesting to see in action. Ideally, it would let non command interested folks who are still great at what they do keep contributing.
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Be careful what you wish for.

The up-or-out system isn't perfect, but it creates problems for promotion opportunity. You think it's hard to make O-4 now? Just wait until your only chance is to wait for someone to retire, and even then you've got to be in the top 1% of fitreps to make the cut. Promotion opportunity for officers was an issue in the early days of the country, and the system we have in place now was put there to fix it.

Better yet, wait until the only chance you have at even getting a commission is to be put onto a huge wait list because there are too many LTs who won't retire.

This was an issue in the early days of service, and can also be an issue in other areas of civil service like police officers and firemen. Yea, there are some people who don't want to be promoted to a 'desk job,' but there are many more people who would enjoy the opportunity for advancement (or even to be hired for the job) who can't.
 
Judge Q

Judge Q

Judging You
snake020 said:
“I used to say if (Facebook CEO) Mark Zuckerberg woke up one day and decided to join the Army, the best I could do was make him an O-2,” he said. “There was no way to have him come in with the stature his professional abilities demand.”

Should anyone trust Zuck as an O-6 line officer in the field? Cyber is not JAG/medical
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Serious question, how would he even make Zuck an O-2 under the current system? He dropped out as a sophomore and his only "degrees" are honorary. Or are there obscure exceptions to the rules about officers needing a degree if you're a billionaire CEO (I know there were/are some programs mostly targeting prior enlisted that allowed for it, I'd never heard of an off the street commission without one)?
 
Spekkio

Spekkio

He bowls overhand.
SemiLateral said:
Some mitigation of the "up or out" will be interesting to see in action. Ideally, it would let non command interested folks who are still great at what they do keep contributing.
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We already have programs for this. You can apply to lateral transfer into a number of line jobs or staff jobs if you aren't selected for a career milestone.

Unless you mean that you want the Navy to allow you to be a JO pilot for 20 years. Yea, there's no program for that.

snake020 said:
“I used to say if (Facebook CEO) Mark Zuckerberg woke up one day and decided to join the Army, the best I could do was make him an O-2,” he said. “There was no way to have him come in with the stature his professional abilities demand.”

Should anyone trust Zuck as an O-6 line officer in the field? Cyber is not JAG/medical
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The way to employ talent like Mark Zuckerberg is not through getting him to commission as an officer, but through federal contracts with industry. Although Mark Zuckerberg is a great programmer and businessman, I don't think that qualifies him to be an instant CO of a battalion.
 
snake020

snake020

Contributor
Spekkio said:
We already have programs for this. You can apply to lateral transfer into a number of line jobs or staff jobs if you aren't selected for a career milestone.

Unless you mean that you want the Navy to allow you to be a JO pilot for 20 years. Yea, there's no program for that.


The way to employ talent like Mark Zuckerberg is not through getting him to commission as an officer, but through federal contracts with industry. Although Mark Zuckerberg is a great programmer and businessman, I don't think that qualifies him to be an instant CO of a battalion.
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If that's the example, there's the SES. Is there a use case for taking Zuck and making him an IW commander afloat or senior officer at C10F without prior experience through the ranks?

If so, why not just take experienced commercial ship drivers and make them SWO Captains?
 
S

SemiLateral

Member
Spekkio said:
Be careful what you wish for.

The up-or-out system isn't perfect, but it creates problems for promotion opportunity. You think it's hard to make O-4 now? Just wait until your only chance is to wait for someone to retire, and even then you've got to be in the top 1% of fitreps to make the cut. Promotion opportunity for officers was an issue in the early days of the country, and the system we have in place now was put there to fix it.

Better yet, wait until the only chance you have at even getting a commission is to be put onto a huge wait list because there are too many LTs who won't retire.

This was an issue in the early days of service, and can also be an issue in other areas of civil service like police officers and firemen. Yea, there are some people who don't want to be promoted to a 'desk job,' but there are many more people who would enjoy the opportunity for advancement (or even to be hired for the job) who can't.
Click to expand...

100% agree that this new system has the potential for problems. I definitely see a possible problem in the event that folks don't get out. That being said, I was under the impression that there were not enough people willing to stay in to go for the O-5 and O-6 level. I could be entirely mistaken of course. I was more thinking along the lines of someone that is perfectly happy at the O-3/O-4 levels of responsibility and is doing a great job a the commands he or she is assigned to. If this person had no aspirations of command, I think it could help out to allow them to stay at that level as long as they maintain a high level of performance at that level and are making a positive contribution. I did not see mention of this in the enlisted ranks, but I would argue it makes sense there as well. An E-7 that is doing a great job as a divisional chief that wants to focus on being a technical expert in his/her rate that does not want to become a department chief is typically forced out at 24 years (CWO path notwithstanding). I think there is an argument that could be made keeping that person as long as they are doing a great job as a divisional chief for an additional 3 or 4 years is a benefit. I guess my hope is that this would carry over into the officer ranks as well.
 
Brett327

Brett327

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Spekkio said:
Unless you mean that you want the Navy to allow you to be a JO pilot for 20 years. Yea, there's no program for that.
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There’s about to be. It’s called Permanent Instructor Pilot, and it will allow quality IPs to reach a terminal rank of O4 and 20 years service while remaining in VT and HT billets. Lots of details and caveats, which I’ll post soon, but the first board will be later this year.
 
Gatordev

Gatordev

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pilot
Site Admin
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Brett327 said:
Lots of details and caveats...
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I have no doubt...and I'm sure they will favor The House and not the player. Not that that's new or not understandable, but players beware.

FWIW, we used to call this program "TAR." But that didn't last forever. Maybe we should call the new program "Warrant." Oh wait.
 
Brett327

Brett327

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Super Moderator
Contributor
Not like TAR or warrant, from what was put out. There will be a board, people will get selected and essentially cycle between VT/HT and TRAWING gigs until they hit 20. It sounds like the target candidates are O4 1310 with the current focus on VT(J), which is where they need IPs. From my perspective, it fills an NAE need while addressing something people on this site have been asking for for years. I think numbers will be fairly limited. They may look at this option in certain FRS as well.
 
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