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One for the Army WO bubbas
- Thread starter Uncle Fester
- Start date
I know all about Task Force Odin's good work and know full well the differences between the RC-12 and MC-12, but there is still very good reason for the Air Force to take over the 'Liberty' mission. Both the USAF and Navy have a surplus of aviators right now, many of whom have quite a bit of experience with ISR. The Army's experience in ISR is not as broad or as deep as either the Air Force or the Navy and would probably have had considerable difficulty absorbing the large numbers of MC-12's entering theater right now. Why? The Army has long not had it's airborne ISR as one of it's higher priorities and it showed. I think one big reason is that much of the expertise in this arena is at the CWO level and they aren't able to best represent the communities at the level it often matters for the communities and their long term health, field grade and above (program management, joint staff and COCOM representation, etc). Most of the Army O-5 and O-6 aviators from the ISR arena I have met didn't have the same breadth and depth of knowledge about their mission areas as their USAF and Navy counterparts, not through any fault of their own. And those guys are very few and far between, leaving a gaping leadership hole at the higher levels. I think the Army's train wreck called Aerial Common Sensor was a direct result of this.
Why does that all matter? The Army had almost it's entire part of it's manned ISR knowledge residing in 4 battalions of aircraft that are already stretched thin. Their expertise in ISR was also very specific, focusing largely on one particular segment of one 'INT'. The Army's lack of knowledges when it came to the larger ISR/electronic warfare arena became painfully evident when the Navy had to plug its EW hole with hundreds of personnel starting in 2006 and continuing today so it is not like the Air Force is doing something much different, they are just running the show in this case. And doubling the Army's manned ISR force almost overnight would have been unwise to say the least, especially when they have hardly any 'back-end' aircrew to speak of. The Air Force might have swooped in and grabbed it but they were probably right to do so, with the infrastructure, institutional knowledge and personnel to get the job done, along with a big assist from the Navy.
It is less about service parochialism than it is simply getting the job done and the Air Force jumping in with both feet, prodded explicitly and repeatedly by the SECDEF himself, was likely the right thing to happen.
Flash,
You don't have to read to many of my post to realize I have a lot of problems with how the Army does business. Part of the fix to man the pilot side was giving up the C-27.We gave it up it up but didn't pick up any additional MC-12's. It is actually pretting sad what the Army ODIN guys are flying. But from what I've heard and seen I don't see the Army giving up the mission. Remeber the Army Vice Chief of Staff created this mission because he said the Air Force was not providing the proper support.
From what I've read the MC-12 pilots will come from all communities and even out of UPT. Aside from guys who fly in your community I'm curious as to where the pilot ISR expertise comes from? And I'm asking this as a question and not as a smart ass. Who will work the backend of these aircraft for the Air Force? Is it going to be NFO/CSO types?
The Army is very myopic and reactive when it comes to certain issies. EW is one of those. I've met a few guys who had to do the IA tour to fill the gap for the Army's who has no SME's in that field. The Army has started an EW school for all ranks and it will be a primary AOC\ MOS.
You don't have to read to many of my post to realize I have a lot of problems with how the Army does business. Part of the fix to man the pilot side was giving up the C-27.We gave it up it up but didn't pick up any additional MC-12's. It is actually pretting sad what the Army ODIN guys are flying. But from what I've heard and seen I don't see the Army giving up the mission. Remeber the Army Vice Chief of Staff created this mission because he said the Air Force was not providing the proper support.
From what I've read the MC-12 pilots will come from all communities and even out of UPT. Aside from guys who fly in your community I'm curious as to where the pilot ISR expertise comes from? And I'm asking this as a question and not as a smart ass. Who will work the backend of these aircraft for the Air Force? Is it going to be NFO/CSO types?
The Army is very myopic and reactive when it comes to certain issies. EW is one of those. I've met a few guys who had to do the IA tour to fill the gap for the Army's who has no SME's in that field. The Army has started an EW school for all ranks and it will be a primary AOC\ MOS.
Straight P-3 guys as well as the tacair community on the Navy side of house (if they expand the # of Navy guys they take to be MC-12 pilots... there hasn't been a lot of word on that other then rumors).
Actually it was the back-enders to whom I was referring. All the Navy guys I know who have gotten tagged to go fly MC-12's have flown in the back, that includes everyone from E-2 NFO's to P-3 and F/A-18 pilots. I think there are a few Navy guys actually piloting them but don't know any personally. I think the back-end of the plane is where you need your ISR experience anyways, since those guys are actually doing most of the mission. And yes, I concede that while some F/A-18 guys probably can't spell ISR they often have quite a bit of experience in the discipline, even if they don't know it.
Flash,
Makes total sense. I dodn't think there are to many Army bubbas with that skill set. The flying isn't really that different and it is still a C-12. I do see a small problem thought and it is this. The Army uses it ISR assets differently. Will the Air Force be in total support of the ground commander or want to do things the way they think think they should be done?
The big issue here is getting people with ISR experience in charge of employing these assets. Why not a joint unit with ISR SME's running the show and manning the front end with all the services.
Makes total sense. I dodn't think there are to many Army bubbas with that skill set. The flying isn't really that different and it is still a C-12. I do see a small problem thought and it is this. The Army uses it ISR assets differently. Will the Air Force be in total support of the ground commander or want to do things the way they think think they should be done?
The big issue here is getting people with ISR experience in charge of employing these assets. Why not a joint unit with ISR SME's running the show and manning the front end with all the services.
That is the big question mark, not just with MC-12's but all ISR aircraft, including UAV's. My hope with the USAF MC-12's is that the guys I know going to fly them are usually pretty sharp and know who they need to support. I would hope the leadership on the ground 'over there' are of the same mind.