Orientation

[MIDNJAC]

MUHAHAHAHA!! I just got back from six days of breaking off 58...no make that 56 NROTC candidates over the a 6 day weekend at Ft. Benning.:icon_rage

The indocs that you all are describing sound like a candy-ass friggin joke compared to what myself and other motivated, knowledgeable Marines and mids put our new guys through. No slack...straight damn Marine Corps type training and discipline.

They all sucked very bad at pretty much everything we made them do........

They're all now much, much better 4th class midshipmen than most of you will ever be.:icon_rage

I think there is maybe a difference in philosophy between most units and yours if that is the case. The LOI for ours specifically outlined that NSO/orientation would not be a "bootcamp style" evolution. IMHO that is not the point, though it may be more fun for those of us on the "giving" end of the program. Orienting the new middies w/ the fundamentals of their new lifestyle, and giving them a reality check about where they are going is important, but I don't think a weeklong suckfest is the answer. Thats just my personal experience, having watched 4 different classes go through O-week with different levels of intensity each time. It may be pure coincidence, but the 2 least squared away classes I have seen were the products of the most intense NSO weeks. Getting 18 yr old kids to drop before they even start is a failure on the staff's part IMO. One week of NSO doesn't make anyone squared away....it puts them on the right track, but come on...they are 18 yr old kids with no life experience. The whole point of NROTC is to let you make some mistakes and learn in the process, which (at least for me) sometimes takes a couple years. You seem pretty squared away, but I would wager a guess that you are a whole lot MORE squared away today than you were when you pinned your EGA for the first time. These kids need life experience, not a fake bootcamp. Nothing against you or your unit, just my personal observations and opinion

 

[usmarinemike]

Or they're a bunch of tools that will get burned out on the whole thing before they even get through their Fourth class year.

NROTC includes a lot of people who have zero interest or need for "straight damn Marine Corps type training and discipline".

Chill man. It's not like we're kicking the stress the whole dang year or anything. They just needed a quick and dirty way to get them ushered into the military fold. They needed that wake-up call to be a bright red sgnal to them that they were making a real transition into a new culture and thatsome of their old ways were not going to fly. It's not like we haze the hell out of them for no reason whatsoever. Everything has a purpose. That's what indoc is all about. Atlanta Region ROTC is quickly becoming tops in retention(quality retention that is) so I don't think there is much danger of the un-nasty mids DOR'ing.

No ROTC unit is serving the best interest of its new members by giving them a half-assed indoctrination. I wouldn't go so far as to say that they are being set up for failure, but I believe a tough indoc is a very valuable two way street. The new member feels like they've really a) accomplished something by building a comraderie and succeeding at something stressful with their fellow midshipmen b) crossed a difficult threshold into a new world and the command gains vey valuable insight into the real character and leadership strengths/weaknesses of their new troops. There is definitely a very well thought out method to it.

Besides, if they do not have any inerest in or the skin thick enough to uphold our naval traditions of razor sharp training and evaluating, then they can go down the hall to the AFROTC.

Now go comb your barely within regs hair, sir.

 

[HH-60H]

It's not like we haze the hell out of them for no reason whatsoever.

Hmmm, I thought hazing was prohibited for any reason.... silly me.

 

[usmarinemike]

Hmmm, I thought hazing was prohibited for any reason.... silly me.

Exactly...The sentence states that there wasn't any hazing.

It was command authorized training and all that jazz. We were also very professional and worked hard to carry out the evolution with class. The staff received several comments from the nearby tenant commands that what they witnessed was good to go. No ordnance kissing/e-tool qualling/psychological sit-ups or anything stupid like that. For sure there was nothing any of us would lose our jobs over.

One of the classes they received was of course a well put together brief on the Navy's no tolerance hazing policy.

 

[HH-60H]

It's not like we haze the hell out of them for no reason whatsoever.

Exactly...The sentence states that there wasn't any hazing.

Actually, it implies that you haze the hell out of them for a reason.

I'm just busting your chops. I am sure you are doing everything by the book.

 

[usmarinemike]

Actually, it implies that you haze the hell out of them for a reason.

Yeah, I realize the sentence is put together a little wrong. That's why I didn't say it CLEARLY stated anything.

I'm just busting your chops. I am sure you are doing everything by the book.

Yeah, I know. I just need to follow CYOA procedure so I don't become the next 60 minutes ratings getter.

 

[HueyCobra8151]

Midnjac: I am pretty sure we go to the same school, and while the LOI may state that it isn't supposed to be a Bootcamp experience, it definitely mirrors Bootcamp and OCS in almost every way.

I think it is a good system - the first part shocks them into compliance, and the second part educates them in a low-stress environment.

I would say the problem is that AFTER indoc, not enough is done to correct people (Prior E's and Midshipman) who are all jacked up.

You can pretty much suck it up through "orientation," then just not be UA (too much) for the next 4 years, and you are fine...(of course the Marine side of the house has OCS to freak out about for the next few years which helps a little to keep them straight)

 

[MIDNJAC]

Midnjac: I am pretty sure we go to the same school, and while the LOI may state that it isn't supposed to be a Bootcamp experience, it definitely mirrors Bootcamp and OCS in almost every way.

I think it is a good system - the first part shocks them into compliance, and the second part educates them in a low-stress environment.

I would say the problem is that AFTER indoc, not enough is done to correct people (Prior E's and Midshipman) who are all jacked up.

You can pretty much suck it up through "orientation," then just not be UA (too much) for the next 4 years, and you are fine...(of course the Marine side of the house has OCS to freak out about for the next few years which helps a little to keep them straight)

pretty sure you are right, and I agree w/ you about the part "after orientation". Thats the experience that I was referring to, which (no matter what) you won't get during indoc. A big part of that is honestly OUR unit, and without airing any dirty laundry online, things have gotten pretty damn lax over the last couple of years. You would never have seen some of the stuff some recent freshman have pulled a few years ago. But back on topic, presuming that indoc doesn't cure this bigger problem, what is the advantage of being harder on them than you need to be? Not saying it should be fun, but I know I sure as hell learned nothing while I was getting yelled at.....and learned everything during my 1st two years in the unit after o-week. Maybe I just didn't take NSO seriously enough when I went through, but it definitely didn't help me much in terms of adjusting to my "new lifestyle".

edit: and you are right about the "bootcamp like" elements to the LOI

 

[HueyCobra8151]

I think it is pretty much a case of not having several dedicated weeks to produce the same effect as Bootcamp/OCS - so you try and do what you can.

If the unit is strict, then NSO is much more applicable. If the unit is lax, then a week later all the new guys forget everything and start complaining because the MECEPS are yelling at them to get a haircut and iron their uniforms.

Could be worse, the Air Force's orientation is a uniform fitting and a barbecue.

(I pretty much agree w/ everything you have said btw, just so that is clear)

 

[Ecureuil444]

Do they still hold it at NAVSTA Newport? I remember being there at the same time and their cadre try to hassle the NAPSters who walked on by. One of NAPSters, a Marine gave that 1/C a run for his money back. Pretty hilarious.

Still in beautiful Newport.

 

[TrunkMonkey]

I begin my orientation tomorrow at 0800 above 5000 feet. I feel that I'm in good shape, but we'll find out. Anyone else start orientation tomorrow?

I started more or less tomorrow six years ago at 'Zona, which was around 3-5K. Don't sweat the altitude. It takes (so they say) 2-5 days to adjust. It's similar to Afghanistan -- just think of it as really good practice!

 

[chrisco133]

we start a 5 week orientation next week at nova

 

[USN99]

Indoc - good idea, not much standardization, less money

See, your unit has a military base to help you out. Its kind of hard for our MECEPs and OCs to give them "bootcamp-style" training when:

A. You're nowhere close to a serious Naval/training base
B. Your training is on a university campus

One of the enduring mythologies held near and dear by every Academy mid is their beloved Plebe Summer. Six weeks of toxic cultural shock where a lot of un-military young people get a rushed indoctrination into the military lifestyle. What they rapidly figure out after Plebe Summer is that the Navy is not the Academy. But they cling to the implied superiority of having endured the regimen.:irked_125

I don't disagree with the rapid indoctrination approach but frankly the US military is not rushing to grow from a peacetime constabulary to a 12 million person force in the course of about 24 months. Been there and done that in the middle of the last century. Frankly, the toxic cultural shock need not be so toxic but it does need to be rapid because the enemy is dedicated to killing you, which is a lifestyle most new Mids are not used to.

While the concept of NROTC Indoc is solid, I gather from all your comments that the level of standardization really varies. I don't disagree with the level of severity but I do think it is hugely relevant that some units can avail themselves of nearby military bases and some cannot. It seems to make a great deal of difference in the quality of the experience.

On another level, a one-week indoc seems like a good idea that has been thwarted by a lack of resources. While the Academy is lavished with O&M and MilCon budgets, NROTC has to scrimp by with makeshift programs, such as a one week Indoc. Again, solid idea, but it needs to be properly resourced so all the units could get to military bases to use their facilities. In a perfectly resourced scenario, all NROTC Midn would report to a 4 - 6 week indoc at a Navy installation that could accomodate nearly the entire incoming class (about 1000 but cycled through in increments so you never load up the base with the entire incoming class at one time). There are not many Navy installations that could do that are there? In fact, maybe it would not be so far-fetched to look at the Naval Service Training Command and its installations for their facilities that could accomodate such a program. Hmmmm .... a modest proposal. :watching3

 

[usmarinemike]

One of the enduring mythologies held near and dear by every Academy mid is their beloved Plebe Summer. Six weeks of toxic cultural shock where a lot of un-military young people get a rushed indoctrination into the military lifestyle. What they rapidly figure out after Plebe Summer is that the Navy is not the Academy. But they cling to the implied superiority of having endured the regimen.:irked_125

I don't disagree with the rapid indoctrination approach but frankly the US military is not rushing to grow from a peacetime constabulary to a 12 million person force in the course of about 24 months. Been there and done that in the middle of the last century. Frankly, the toxic cultural shock need not be so toxic but it does need to be rapid because the enemy is dedicated to killing you, which is a lifestyle most new Mids are not used to.

While the concept of NROTC Indoc is solid, I gather from all your comments that the level of standardization really varies. I don't disagree with the level of severity but I do think it is hugely relevant that some units can avail themselves of nearby military bases and some cannot. It seems to make a great deal of difference in the quality of the experience.

On another level, a one-week indoc seems like a good idea that has been thwarted by a lack of resources. While the Academy is lavished with O&M and MilCon budgets, NROTC has to scrimp by with makeshift programs, such as a one week Indoc. Again, solid idea, but it needs to be properly resourced so all the units could get to military bases to use their facilities. In a perfectly resourced scenario, all NROTC Midn would report to a 4 - 6 week indoc at a Navy installation that could accomodate nearly the entire incoming class (about 1000 but cycled through in increments so you never load up the base with the entire incoming class at one time). There are not many Navy installations that could do that are there? In fact, maybe it would not be so far-fetched to look at the Naval Service Training Command and its installations for their facilities that could accomodate such a program. Hmmmm .... a modest proposal. :watching3

Interesting. I'm sure the idea has been brought up before. I think the resaon Navy doesn't want to spend money on the incoming newbies is commitment. A high percentage of new freshmen wash out the first year, and they do not have to repay a single penny of the money they sucked up. I believe that among the missions of a good indoc, one of the most important is to prepare the new ones for the upcoming year and let them know what is expected of them and to set them up for success so they end up not washing out. It's possible that it's been shown that this mission requires more money than it would save.

 

[USN99]

Bucks and Buck Rogers

:watching3I understand that you suggest that the reason that NROTC indoc is not funded beyond what it is today is that an attrite represents no return on investment. Compared to the sunk cost of a USNA midn who attrites in Plebe Summer, the marginal cost of NROTC indoc of a similar nature is significantly smaller. Most USNA mids attrite during their first year. I think the percentage is somewhere between 10 - 19%, rarely over 20%. Even if the USNA mid does not have to repay the cost of his education, that attrite is also a sunk cost. And by the way, even if they "repay" the cost of their education the Navy does not get the money anyway. Federal Financial Regulations prohibit this. The U.S. Treasury gets the money and no corresponding plus-up (recoupment) shows up in the annual appropriation for naval personnel. The entire cost of the USNA is a sunk cost that is funded lavishly without regard to attrition during Plebe Summer. :icon_smil

So I just think that simple neglect and indifference are the reasons that NROTC mids don't get more than a non-standard indoc week vice a six week regimen similar to USNA mids. The neglect and indifference don't come from the individual NROTC units, rather it comes from the Naval Personnel Command. What a curious dichotomy - they will pay the cost of a six week indoc for USNA mids but won't for a nearly equivalent number of NROTC mids.

I assert that the Naval Service Training Command has the capacity to handle a 4 or 5 week NROTC indoc program. The simple fact that NROTC mids are short-changed in an indoc program, and in those paltry 4 week summer cruises, demonstrates to this observer that the Naval Personnel Command just doesn't want to spend the money investing in its NROTC mids. And returning to attrition, I assert that NROTC attrition is significantly less than for the USNA.

It all comes down to bucks. While the Navy seems to be slowly transitioning to a 1/3 USNA, 1/3 NROTC, 1/3 OCS distribution of officer accessions, the cost per accession is in no way similarly distributed. Think about this. The US has thousands of four-year colleges and universities in the 21st century. Why does the US government have to have five? Here's another news flash. It does not take four years to make an Ensign. But it does take more than one week of indoc, and three, 4 week summer cruises. :icon_rage