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Pilot slot availability between USN vs USMC?
- Thread starter Pringle
- Start date
I'm not surprised at the lack of competition for a Marine pilot slot. Yes, we are a smaller branch but the general vibe I always got coming up through NROTC and flight school was the USMC has a ton of people who join to do gung-ho ground stuff, whereas the Navy doesn't have a ton of people whose first choice is driving ships or subs.
Pilot retention in the Marine Corps is also in an atrocious state right now. Over the last 3-4 years, a TON of people punched out right at their minimum service requirement to go to the airlines. Unlike the Navy, we don't hold people for a "disassociated sea tour" so everyone's able to leave active duty with currency, whether from a fleet squadron or a shore tour. I think retention may get better now that airline hiring is slowing down a fair bit. At least it seems the days of 750-hour section leads getting a CJO from 3-4 regionals and having to pick seem to be over.
I won't speak to the state of things in the Navy, but my boilerplate warning to anyone looking to get into this business is this: do not underestimate what "officer first, pilot second" means. You are guaranteed your first fleet tour and nothing else. Sometimes not even that; reference Page 71 of the thread, "All things MV-22 Osprey" in which user JimboSlicee's orders were curtailed and he was sent off to a supposed flying tour (but not really) in Japan. If you are in an aircraft community which struggles with maintenance (MV-22s and CH-53s for sure, F/A-18s and AV-8s while they're still around), expect to fly a lot less than you probably expected a military pilot flies. Reference the thread, "I fly 5 hours a month and I want out."
Pilot retention in the Marine Corps is also in an atrocious state right now. Over the last 3-4 years, a TON of people punched out right at their minimum service requirement to go to the airlines. Unlike the Navy, we don't hold people for a "disassociated sea tour" so everyone's able to leave active duty with currency, whether from a fleet squadron or a shore tour. I think retention may get better now that airline hiring is slowing down a fair bit. At least it seems the days of 750-hour section leads getting a CJO from 3-4 regionals and having to pick seem to be over.
I won't speak to the state of things in the Navy, but my boilerplate warning to anyone looking to get into this business is this: do not underestimate what "officer first, pilot second" means. You are guaranteed your first fleet tour and nothing else. Sometimes not even that; reference Page 71 of the thread, "All things MV-22 Osprey" in which user JimboSlicee's orders were curtailed and he was sent off to a supposed flying tour (but not really) in Japan. If you are in an aircraft community which struggles with maintenance (MV-22s and CH-53s for sure, F/A-18s and AV-8s while they're still around), expect to fly a lot less than you probably expected a military pilot flies. Reference the thread, "I fly 5 hours a month and I want out."
Could not agree more.
Your career is predicated on being an Officer of Marines.
Remembering back to an IG inspection when standing in formation in front of my Marines (Aircraft Maintenance), no sleep for three days in preparation, looking sharp. The General reviewed my Marines, praised their readiness, and even smiled. I saluted and he walked towards the next victims. My CO stopped, turned and faced me (6" from my face) to say "Captain, I'm EXTREMELY disappointed with you." And he turned and stormed away. What was my egregious offence? My haircut was obviously more than a few days old (to a Marine, and for an IG inspection, inexcusable).
So back to "officer first, pilot second." I had not set the highest standard for my Marines. Ooh Rah. Semper FI!
OCS and TBS are additional attrition factors the Marines have to take into account during pilot accessions. They have to “over recruit” student pilots compared to other services. We still fuck it up after decades of production. Anyways, nobody cares about how awesome of an engineering or math student you are if you break an ankle in OCS, fall out of a forced march during TBS, or can’t carry a full combat load w/ a rifle and an ILBE during a FAC tour… or are just generally a little bitch when it comes to physical exertion.
While I empathize with certain timing factors Marine aviators can’t control (red stripes, mishaps). I would not take much stock in anecdotal experiences while generalizing an entire service. Phrog and Osprey pilots of my generation flew their nuts off, and now the younger ones are hurting. By the time the OP gets to the fleet, the situation might have completely flipped on its head or stabilized. The Kilo will be in full rate production. A few Osprey Capts that worked for me at one point in my career bailed not because they weren’t flying, but because they were being double and triple pumped on deployments (I.e. flying their faces off) during first fleet tour. They were looking at fleet to fleet B-billets. A Harrier buddy of mine punched because he did 5 - F I V E - MEU pumps before even sniffing a B-billet. It’s all timing.
The one thing nobody lied to me about prior to flight school was the officer first, pilot second mentality, and it has held true. Not sure why anyone would complain about being fed the company line and then act surprised when reality hits. Not a gung-ho motivator myself, but I understand the logic, even though I disagree with it at times. It is very hard to maintain credibility when you’re briefing/planning with senior Marine Infantry or ground officers and it looks like somebody poured you into your flight suit and have a haircut straight out of cheech and chong. They don’t give a fuck about your flight hours or quals.
j_c_m_1999
New Member
What are the “pros” of the marine corps?
It’s difficult to envision what a career would look like compared to being in the navy. I want to fly jets and based off what I’ve read online it might be an equal chance between the two.
I understand I might find myself in a helo either way.
If I end up in a Huey what’s the chance that I end up on a FAC tour?
The career progression model in the Marines is much less stringent. Manpower isn’t going to arbitrarily shove square pegs into round holes because it fits their agenda. Orders are much more of a conversation and negotiation than what I’ve heard/seen on the Navy side. They also keep track of who gets raw deals and make attempts to amend bad situations. Not always, but I’ve seen it happen more often than not. I have never been told “This billet is off-track” for command or promotion. I’ve never been told by the monitor they’re cutting my tour length, moving my family across the country, and involuntarily extending my MSR. I have seen multiple dudes get “rolled” into the next move cycle because the billet list didn’t line up with what they wanted, and the monitor had already made the staffing goals and hot fills work that cycle. It makes a world of difference when the monitor actually gives a shit about you and your families lives after a couple deployments and fleet life. Just don’t be a dick to the monitor. It pays dividends.
Not a lot of dudes and gals join the Marines just to fly jets. There was a pretty good spread of desires in flight school, and I imagine it’s the same now. Most of those jet-only type of people end up in the USAF or Navy and don’t consider the Marines. So for what’s it’s worth, while the overall numbers are smaller, your chances are probably the same in either service. There isn’t a “fighter mafia” in the Marines, so they have to beg, borrow, and steal like the rest of us. It’s a much more level playing field.
You will most likely end up on a FAC tour at some point in your career regardless of TMS, unless you intentionally dodge them. They’re not career-ending or career-making billets, but boy they are a ton of fun. They’re also a great way to see how the other side of the Marine Corps works, and understand the strengths and weaknesses of your peers in a different MOS.
Reality is a bitch, but it true to its word.
Your chances of a FAC tour are the same if no matter what you fly.
What the ground combat units need is a aviator or NFO who speaks aviation and knows what the aviator needs to provide support to the ground units.
Whether you fly jets or not depends on how well you do as an SNA, but primarily it is based on service needs.
The week of my selection everyone got helos, Navy or Marine.
There were quite a few pissed off guys at the O'club that evening.
The only thing that is actually guaranteed is that your career will in the long run be nothing that you envisioned, and that's not a bad thing,
Someone may know better but I’m not sure this is 100% true. If a TMS is critically short on manpower and another TMS not so much, the former is more likely to stay flying, the latter not so much.
Again not sure 100%, source is my hazy recollections and anecdotal evidence that may be wrong, not sure if it’s policy and/or practice.
You are correct. JO F-35 pilots are not going to staff the traditional battalion FAC tours for the foreseeable future (likely ANGLICO and certainly MARSOC will be options however).
Marines. That’s not to be flippant or (trust me) moto, but being around the guys seriously just rocks. It’s legitimately amazing how LCpls can find ways to amuse themselves.
If word on the street is correct, they just recently restarted doing this for a small number of F-35 pilots after a long hiatus from TACAIR. Although still subject to the ebbs and flows of deployments and production.
j_c_m_1999
New Member
I appreciate the input from everyone on here.
Other than a FAC tour, what other tours would a marine corps pilot do after the JO tour? Aside from being an instructor in the training wings or FRS, etc?
A fleet-to-fleet is probably the other most common one. MAWTS-1, HMX, and test (dev and op) are the gold plated “niche” ones.
Back in my recon days we had a bunch of FACs who were A-4 pilots waiting for a slot to learn Harrier stuff (or burning time until they left the Corps). All of them were really good at their job, but we had an OV-10 driver who was a natural and really appreciated how we had to move, hide, and communicate.
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