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President Obama Wins Nobel Peace Prize

DukeAndrewJ

Divo without a division
Contributor
I still don't understand why professional degrees (this is not limited to doctors, but lawyers and other professionals as well) require a 4-year bachelor's for entry. Mind you, they don't require any sort of specific degree, just a degree. That's 4 extra years of schooling and going into debt that can be expended. I have a friend who just graduated medical school who has a degree in political science. I'm sure that classes such as early 20th century U.S. foreign policy are doing wonders to help him treat patients.

I thought about this too, but in the end, I don't think it is a good idea to allow people to jump straight to med/law or any other graduate program for a few reasons:
- For one, people just aren't ready at 18 years old. I am in a graduate program in the basic sciences (immuno) and it is difficult enough (even with a BS in biology) - I can't imagine tackling it 5 years ago
- they don't require a specific degree, but they do require specific classes, many of which serve to weed people out. I am glad pre-meds have to take organic chem (they better know how the drugs they give me work), and if you let people into med school without some of these classes, you will have a lot dropping out in the first semester (just like half the pre-meds change their mind after failing orgo)
- a lot of what you learn in college may not directly translate to your professional field, but there are certainly a lot of general skills that people (should) acquire in college, such as writing/communicating in an effective and professional manner, while also learning to deal with more freedom than you have had before
- add to that the fact that most 18 year olds have NO idea of what they will want to do a few years down the line - college gives you a chance to try a few things out and then hopefully make a more educated decision

on the other hand though - I agree that it is seems silly that we have not been increasing the number of medical schools - perhaps there is a decent reason but I don't know it...
 

PropAddict

Now with even more awesome!
pilot
Contributor
I still don't understand why professional degrees (this is not limited to doctors, but lawyers and other professionals as well) require a 4-year bachelor's for entry.

Because professional degrees are Doctorates, be it MD, JD, DO, etc. As DukeAndrew stated, there is a minimum level of competency and basic knowledge needed to comprehend material at that level and that's how academia has chosen assess it.

While we're at it, why did I need an Aerospace engineering degree to be a pilot? Or "any 4 year degree" to become an officer? Similar argument.
 

Spekkio

He bowls overhand.
I thought about this too, but in the end, I don't think it is a good idea to allow people to jump straight to med/law or any other graduate program for a few reasons:
- For one, people just aren't ready at 18 years old. I am in a graduate program in the basic sciences (immuno) and it is difficult enough (even with a BS in biology) - I can't imagine tackling it 5 years ago
If you want to argue for an age requirement, then fine. I would disagree (even completely cutting out a 4 year degree, one would not become a full-fledged doctor until 25 at a minimum), but requiring a bachelor's just to make someone "older" is silly.

Also, did you know that it's harder for people to get accepted to medical school as they get older? Clearly medical schools don't agree with this line of thought if they prefer 22 year olds over older people.

- they don't require a specific degree, but they do require specific classes, many of which serve to weed people out. I am glad pre-meds have to take organic chem (they better know how the drugs they give me work), and if you let people into med school without some of these classes, you will have a lot dropping out in the first semester (just like half the pre-meds change their mind after failing orgo)
These classes can be rolled into the first year of medical school. It is not hard to give someone basic biology, chemistry, calculus, English, and organic chemistry in one year, and the higher courseload would be more representative of medical school anyway. You can cut out the labs because, realistically, labs are useless to someone who isn't going to go into research. That still cuts off 3 years of undergraduate school.

Medical schools also screen applicants with the MCAT in addition to grades. That standardized test is weighted fairly heavily into one's acceptance, similar to the ASTB for pilots. If that test is at all accurate in predicting performance in medical school, then schools would not have to worry about a significantly higher dropout rate. All you'd be doing is substituting high school grades for college grades.

Mind you, there already are "3+3" programs where students can apply for a medical school spot directly out of high school, so it's not like medical schools are completely adverse to accepting students from high school.

- a lot of what you learn in college may not directly translate to your professional field, but there are certainly a lot of general skills that people (should) acquire in college, such as writing/communicating in an effective and professional manner, while also learning to deal with more freedom than you have had before
Haha...haha...doctors can "write." You got me there. Good one.

Seriously, though...while there are some doctors who publish papers and such, the majority of doctors who never write anything outside of filling out forms and prescriptions.

Also, while I agree that college can help one grow as a person, I disagree with the notion that these skills cannot be learned while in medical school.

Finally, after working in corporate America for a couple years prior to joining the Navy, I can tell you that many college graduates are no better at "writing and communicating" than high school graduates. There's a large attitude of "spellcheck will fix it."

- add to that the fact that most 18 year olds have NO idea of what they will want to do a few years down the line - college gives you a chance to try a few things out and then hopefully make a more educated decision
These same 18 year olds can figure that out in the workplace rather than at college all the same. All a 4 year degree does is make people in these professions feel entitled to higher pay because they had more schooling.

on the other hand though - I agree that it is seems silly that we have not been increasing the number of medical schools - perhaps there is a decent reason but I don't know it...
My guess is to keep the medical profession "elite." But that's just a guess.

In short, everything that is gained from an undergraduate education can also be gained while in medical school with some restructuring of the curriculum. In fact, there are many countries, such as England, for example, utilize this very system.

While we're at it, why did I need an Aerospace engineering degree to be a pilot? Or "any 4 year degree" to become an officer? Similar argument.
Why do you? You asked your question in a rhetorical manner, but I couldn't come up with a good reason why you would outside of the fact that it's the status quo.

There are a lot of jobs that require a 4-year degree these days that were done by high school graduates a couple decades ago. The world didn't fall apart then, so what's the difference now?
 

subTidal

New Member
COLA is based solely on the level of inflation, not what President Obama thinks...stop regurgitating Limbaugh and O'Reilly and have an original thought...

I didn't state it was based on what he thinks. I stated he announced there would be no COLA and the reason why. I'm neither regurgitating Limbaugh nor O'Reilly, but your hissy is duly noted.
 

A4sForever

BTDT OLD GUY
pilot
Contributor
I've got a NEWS FLASH for some of you ... especially those of you who think our President is ... 'black' ...

He's not. :eek:

How do I KNOW ... ????

Have you ever seen him dance ... ????


The defense rests .... he's NOT 'black', whatever that means ...
:)

Q.E.D.
 

Clux4

Banned
Because professional degrees are Doctorates, be it MD, JD, DO, etc. As DukeAndrew stated, there is a minimum level of competency and basic knowledge needed to comprehend material at that level and that's how academia has chosen assess it.

While we're at it, why did I need an Aerospace engineering degree to be a pilot? Or "any 4 year degree" to become an officer? Similar argument.

US educational system is archaic and just another way to collect revenue. Probably a pretty arrogant statement but there are countries that do not require a first degree. British system seems to be fine. Until anyone can prove that students without a first are at a disadvantage.......

It is really sad with all these kids that go to law school only to realize that they are left with loads of loans and no substantial income to pay for it. Then you ask yourself, why are law school really expensive? There are really no serious investments. Books are cheap in the country and the laws really do not significantly change. The building are old and expansion is really not the issue. Got it, you have a well recognized faculty and so...? What no one really tells these kids is that you are at a big disadvantage if you do not get into a Tier 1 school. So everyone is going through law school with a pipe-dream of earning six figures out the door. At least the medical field is not like this. Add ensuing cost of a private university and a law degree at a Tier 1 law school and see what you are left with.
Please tell me my money is not paying for trips on Citation jet for the board of directors. Please tell me all these is going to research (something you already have grants for).

You get the picture?
 

DukeAndrewJ

Divo without a division
Contributor
US educational system is archaic and just another way to collect revenue. Probably a pretty arrogant statement but there are countries that do not require a first degree. British system seems to be fine. Until anyone can prove that students without a first are at a disadvantage.......

I can't speak from experience about any disparities in regard to medical or law school education quality in other countries (although I have heard that generally medical degrees from outside the US are not as highly regarded), but within a lot of the biomedical sciences, I can tell you that the doctoral training in foreign countries does not come close to being on par with that of US schools.

The post-docs we get in to our department who received their education elsewhere (most in China, but one from Oxford) are generally disasters. A PhD from an American university (in the fields I am familiar with) carries A LOT more weight abroad then vice versa.
 

Clux4

Banned
I can't speak from experience about any disparities in regard to medical or law school education quality in other countries (although I have heard that generally medical degrees from outside the US are not as highly regarded), but within a lot of the biomedical sciences, I can tell you that the doctoral training in foreign countries does not come close to being on par with that of US schools.

The post-docs we get in to our department who received their education elsewhere (most in China, but one from Oxford) are generally disasters. A PhD from an American university (in the fields I am familiar with) carries A LOT more weight abroad then vice versa.

Regarded by who? We (Americans) have all sorts of ranking system. Some of them are just creating illusions in our mind. The rankings is really all they care about. That is how they get their new customers. Of course there are resources in this country that help but that does not mean we are the best or that those other countries are sitting on their asses. Hell, our medical field is dominated by foreigners many of whom went to school in India/ Pakistan / Nigeria and are now doctors/Pharmacist here.

What field are you in? PhD track is another can of worms.
 

CAMike

Well-Known Member
None
Contributor
I can't speak from experience about any disparities in regard to medical or law school education quality in other countries (although I have heard that generally medical degrees from outside the US are not as highly regarded), but within a lot of the biomedical sciences, I can tell you that the doctoral training in foreign countries does not come close to being on par with that of US schools.

The post-docs we get in to our department who received their education elsewhere (most in China, but one from Oxford) are generally disasters. A PhD from an American university (in the fields I am familiar with) carries A LOT more weight abroad then vice versa.

Careful. Doctoral programs (in wife's case Bio-Physics) vary internationally just as they do here in the states from various institutions. The wifey (MD from Temple Med School) and I have met many docs from various institutions, both domestically and internationally. The final products are often quite diverse. In fact we recently had quite the group discussion on this very subject. The consensus from the group was the following: (By the way, the group was about 80% domestic docs and 20% foreign trained docs.)

Some insight from those folks:

1. Not many American kids who have the brains and desire want to invest in 10 yrs of school (and related debt) with a forecasted income of $"XXX" depending on the specialty. Americans kids are generally of the mindset- "Why work so hard in med school when a 4 yr or 6 yr degree often pays pretty darn well in a different field".

2. MOST foreign folks who work here as docs quite often come from a less than royal upbringing and are extremely thankful for the opportunity to make good money in this country. They mostly condsider it a privledge to work in the states and make that good money. Some even send a part of it back home to family that supported them initially. In fact most foreign docs are so damn thankful to be here and work here, that they tell their friends and younger siblings to get off their asses and do the same! The USA is truly a remarkable country of real opportunity.

Do you see the trend here? It's not that the foreign schools produce an inferior product or that foreign students are less intelligent or don't work as hard as their US domestic counterparts. It's that the US kids are generally "less motivated" for a number of reasons and are looking for an easier way to make money.

Wifey and I are both born and raised US citizens. Just be careful when speaking about products of schools. There are really smart students and really mediocre students worldwide, same goes for the schools. It's really not fair to say foreign schools produce lower quality students. There is a disproportionate number of foreign professionals working here in the states and there are many reasons for that fact.

We need to motivate our domestic kids to be the best that they can be, especially if they have natural talents!

Rant off- Just a different perspective.
 

scoolbubba

Brett327 gargles ballsacks
pilot
Contributor
US educational system is archaic and just another way to collect revenue. Probably a pretty arrogant statement but there are countries that do not require a first degree. British system seems to be fine. Until anyone can prove that students without a first are at a disadvantage.......

Our collegiate system happens to be the best (not one of the best, but the best) in the world. Over 600,000 of the best and brightest from other countries came here to get their degrees, undergrad/graduate combined. 38 of the top 50 schools in the world are here, in a country that makes up less than 5% of the world's population. Careful calling it archaic. Is it expensive? Yep. Does it turn out a good product? You betcha.
 

PropAddict

Now with even more awesome!
pilot
Contributor
Agreed. But I think our success is becoming our downfall. Even a generation ago, most middle-class kids didn't go to college; a high school diploma was a golden ticket. With more federal subsidies and "You NEED to go to college" propaganda around schools, vastly higher percentages of kids are staying through high school and getting higher education.

Have we really increased the qualified applicant pool that much?
Are all these kids legitimately interested in pursuing higher-learning, or are they just getting that 4 year check in the box so they won't be "assured a life of poverty"?

It has led to a watering-down of academic rigor here: colleges offering more basic classes to accommodate students who really aren't college material, more "General Studies" and "Art History" degrees, and a need to immediately pursue graduate-level studies "to stay competitive" for top jobs. The Bachelor's degree is rapidly losing significance, because the education it represents is increasingly insufficient for real-world work.

Which is why top-tier universities have a case for getting more money: they are (theoretically) more selective, providing that better education by not needing to pander to unqualified students, which will better prepare the graduate and carry more cachet in the workforce.
 

DukeAndrewJ

Divo without a division
Contributor
Regarded by who? We (Americans) have all sorts of ranking system.

I am in immunology and from what I have seen, PhDs earned at US institutions are regarded more highly by just about everyone. Not just in terms of an arbitrary ranking, but you will be at a competitive advantage coming from a US school when applying to jobs either here or abroad.

But I agree PhDs are a whole different can of worms - and this gets in to what CAMike said: Most of us do not pay to go to school because we get full fellowships (generally from NIH research grants). Since the US spends far more money on biomedical research than most other countries combined, there is simply more opportunity for students to receive education without going into debt.

1. Not many American kids who have the brains and desire want to invest in 10 yrs of school (and related debt) with a forecasted income of $"XXX" depending on the specialty. Americans kids are generally of the mindset- "Why work so hard in med school when a 4 yr or 6 yr degree often pays pretty darn well in a different field".

2. MOST foreign folks who work here as docs quite often come from a less than royal upbringing and are extremely thankful for the opportunity to make good money in this country. They mostly condsider it a privledge to work in the states and make that good money. Some even send a part of it back home to family that supported them initially. In fact most foreign docs are so damn thankful to be here and work here, that they tell their friends and younger siblings to get off their asses and do the same! The USA is truly a remarkable country of real opportunity.

Do you see the trend here? It's not that the foreign schools produce an inferior product or that foreign students are less intelligent or don't work as hard as their US domestic counterparts. It's that the US kids are generally "less motivated" for a number of reasons and are looking for an easier way to make money.

Wifey and I are both born and raised US citizens. Just be careful when speaking about products of schools. There are really smart students and really mediocre students worldwide, same goes for the schools. It's really not fair to say foreign schools produce lower quality students. There is a disproportionate number of foreign professionals working here in the states and there are many reasons for that fact.

We need to motivate our domestic kids to be the best that they can be, especially if they have natural talents!

Rant off- Just a different perspective.

I agree with pretty much all of this. I in no way meant that foreign students are less intelligent - just that the education they receive at the PhD level is not the same as those who receive it here. In fact, a large percentage of our students are from China and they are generally some of the smartest/hardest working students in the lab. But the Chinese students come here for a reason - the majority of the applications our department receives are from foreign countries and it is much more difficult to get in as an international student. From what I have heard, they come here because our training (in this field) is better than what can be had abroad.

Of course there are exceptions, there are brilliant scientists all over the world and plenty of worthless scientists here in the US, but we simply spend a metric crapton more on research.
 

Spekkio

He bowls overhand.
Just to clarify: my original argument was in regards to professionals. People with PhD's who are doing research need the first 4 years to learn the basics of their fields. You'd be hard pressed to get an advanced degree in immunology without having learned the basic cell structure and mechanisms of DNA reproduction during your bachelorate studies.

Rather, I'm speaking about professions that just require a degree as a check in the box. Medical school is two years of "basic" courses followed by two years of hands-on study in a hospital doing rotations. It is much more focused on the practice of medicine rather than the theory of medicine.

This extends beyond medicine. Many companies require a BA or BS to sit in front of a computer working spread sheets and writing emails all day. To use a more close-to-home example, it is quickly becoming the status quo to have a graduate degree to be promoted to a senior officer. This wasn't always the case, and our short history is littered with top brass who did not pursue higher education prior to being promoted, yet created effective military strategy.

Furthering one's education is a good thing, but requiring it as a check in the box is not practical. The very fact that it puts many young 20 year olds in tens of thousands of dollars of debt right off the back is a huge disadvantage that is not being compensated for by higher salaries compared to previous generations doing the same or similar jobs with a high school diploma.

Our collegiate system happens to be the best (not one of the best, but the best) in the world. Over 600,000 of the best and brightest from other countries came here to get their degrees, undergrad/graduate combined. 38 of the top 50 schools in the world are here, in a country that makes up less than 5% of the world's population. Careful calling it archaic. Is it expensive? Yep. Does it turn out a good product? You betcha.
It's archaic in the sense that it's not actually giving people real-world skills. This is demonstrated by the fact that a significant amount, if not most, employers don't care what your degree is, just that you have it. As mentioned above, it is merely becoming a "check in the box."

What is your definition of colleges "turning out a good product?"
 

PropAddict

Now with even more awesome!
pilot
Contributor
It's archaic in the sense that it's not actually giving people real-world skills. This is demonstrated by the fact that a significant amount, if not most, employers don't care what your degree is, just that you have it. As mentioned above, it is merely becoming a "check in the box."

College is not Trade School; it's not meant to be job training, it's meant to set you up with methods of inquiry, comprehension, problem-solving, and expression. In short, general skills, not specific ones. Choosing a major just bends that knowledge to a particular field of interest (e.g. the problems are based on actual ones from that field, the tools are typical of that industry, the writing format is the predominant one for that branch, etc.).

This may be part of the "check the box" mentality (i.e. it's used as a measure of basic competence and demonstrated capacity to learn, problem-solve, and express your findings). It's also possibly how we've cheapened collegiate degrees: "This idiot with a BS can't do anything. Get me someone who knows something, someone with a Masters." And we've saturated the market with college grads (many of whom probably never should have gone to college), so it's easy to "upgrade" the jobs from a HS level to a BS level and pay the same.
 

Random8145

Registered User
Contributor
Quit talking out of your ass. I've seen the care that Navy specialists give first hand, and it's exceptional.

I wasn't. My family has had experience with military doctors, some of whom were enormous incompetents, and some were fine. It depends. I also know some other people who have had varying experiences with military doctors and facilities. Also one cannot sue a government doctor if they mess up badly.

Not sure where "Bathesda" is either.

http://www.bethesda.med.navy.mil/ (I mis-spelled it)
 
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