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Recovering LSO

Suck Less
pilot
Contributor
I tend to agree with @nittany03, but RLSO's point is also valid. The hell of it is, IMO Navy Air does a much better job than the rest of the Navy at choosing and using instructors. I've even heard a Shoe 2-star say the same. The admiral in question praised aviation for "picking their best to send back to the schoolhouse". I think the disconnect is in the follow-up question - who are your best? The good stick behind the Boat who'll make a great skipper someday isn't necessarily the best guy to fly two FAMs a day with ENS Knucklehead in P'cola. Conversely, your Fleet Average guy who just kind of muddled through his ground job and has one eye towards FedEx might be a fantastic instructor.

A partial solution, I think, might be structuring the FITUs more like LSO School or the Weapons Schools - stand-alone units with permanent instructor cadres and the authority to weed out dudes who don't have the patience or skill set to be effective IPs. I also think IPs burn out after about 12-18 mos...you can only see the same mistakes made so many times before you start having seizures. Monitor their grading trends just as you monitor students' and watch for signs of burnout.

The program is a production line, but that doesn't mean you should leave good students by the side of the road just because their on-wing loses his shit when the stud's too slow with the trim.
The other, somewhat uncomfortable, question is: does the process in place work well enough to meet fleet requirements? Unfortunately, there are always going to be some folks who don't get it (however you want to define "it'), and no amount of PhD-equivalent flight instructors are going to change that.
 
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Gatordev

Well-Known Member
pilot
Site Admin
Contributor
A partial solution, I think, might be structuring the FITUs more like LSO School or the Weapons Schools - stand-alone units with permanent instructor cadres and the authority to weed out dudes who don't have the patience or skill set to be effective IPs.

This is already a thing at some TRAWINGs. TRAWING 5 has had two dedicated ITUs for a long time and there was talk about Corpus adopting the model when I left. Not sure if that ever surfaced. I can't speak to the HTs, but I'd argue that the VTs benefited greatly from having a dedicated ITU.
 

Uncle Fester

Robot Pimp
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
This is already a thing at some TRAWINGs. TRAWING 5 has had two dedicated ITUs for a long time and there was talk about Corpus adopting the model when I left. Not sure if that ever surfaced. I can't speak to the HTs, but I'd argue that the VTs benefited greatly from having a dedicated ITU.

As I understand it, that's more how the Air Force does it. Their FITUs are self-contained squadron-sized units...prospective IPs go there as TAD I-stops en route to their instructor assignments. That's all I know about the mechanics of how the Zoomies do it. My thought was that we could model our FITUs on something like the Weapons Schools - guys who train the trainers and then monitor how they're doing and also have responsibility for updating and refreshing the standards. Have them report directly to CNATRA instead of the skippers or CDREs.

The other, somewhat uncomfortable question, is: does the process in place work well enough to meet fleet requirements? Unfortunately, there are always going to be some folks who don't get it (however you want to define "it'), and no amount of PhD-equivalent flight instructors are going to change that.

Obviously it works well enough...we're just bullshitting about whether it could be done better. I agree that some cones just aren't going to get it - lack of skill or motivation or whatever. However, I don't agree that any good pilot can be an instructor, and that any student will learn well from any IP if they're motivated enough, especially in the early stages. I saw one IP who was finally pulled from being an on-wing after he'd downed four of his on-wings in a row. Guy was just burned out, ready to leave, hated flying with students, and I would argue that he wasn't giving those studs any useful instruction. So at best he was wasting their time and his; at worst he rattled some kids so bad that other IPs had to undo his work before they could learn anything.
 

Gatordev

Well-Known Member
pilot
Site Admin
Contributor
As I understand it, that's more how the Air Force does it. Their FITUs are self-contained squadron-sized units...prospective IPs go there as TAD I-stops en route to their instructor assignments. That's all I know about the mechanics of how the Zoomies do it. My thought was that we could model our FITUs on something like the Weapons Schools - guys who train the trainers and then monitor how they're doing and also have responsibility for updating and refreshing the standards. Have them report directly to CNATRA instead of the skippers or CDREs.

The problem with the AF model is that the ITU is in one place, so everyone has to go their first, which I'd argue wastes money in PCS/TAD funds.

The FITU/HITU model has the OICs reporting to the CDRE. I'm not sure why they would need to report to CNATRA, as the CDRE is (hopefully) going to have a better idea on what specific product he wants. The FITU/HITU IPs are sent TAD to the Wing and then become the STAN pilots for the Wing. Obviously they're also making IPs, or if there are issues (which happens), helping them along with specialized ET events.

Having flown with IPs and studs under the FITU/HITU model and flown with IPs and studs under the "squadron ITU" model, I think the standalone FITU/HITU model is the way to go and creates a pretty good product (quality spread, notwithstanding).
 

Uncle Fester

Robot Pimp
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
The FITU/HITU model has the OICs reporting to the CDRE. I'm not sure why they would need to report to CNATRA, as the CDRE is (hopefully) going to have a better idea on what specific product he wants.

More standardization across all TRAWINGS, and gives CNATRA more direct authority over how IPs are manufactured and maintained, as opposed to just issuing directives. Anecdotally a student's experience varies greatly depending on what Wing and TRARON they go to; seems like less variation would be preferable.

At this point I'm aware I'm rapidly veering out of my lane of expertise. Just saying, the AF FITU model has some elements that sound worth incorporating into the Navy's model.
 

nittany03

Recovering NFO. Herder of Programmers.
pilot
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
I tend to agree with @nittany03, but RLSO's point is also valid. The hell of it is, IMO Navy Air does a much better job than the rest of the Navy at choosing and using instructors. I've even heard a Shoe 2-star say the same. The admiral in question praised aviation for "picking their best to send back to the schoolhouse". I think the disconnect is in the follow-up question - who are your best? The good stick behind the Boat who'll make a great skipper someday isn't necessarily the best guy to fly two FAMs a day with ENS Knucklehead in P'cola. Conversely, your Fleet Average guy who just kind of muddled through his ground job and has one eye towards FedEx might be a fantastic instructor.

A partial solution, I think, might be structuring the FITUs more like LSO School or the Weapons Schools - stand-alone units with permanent instructor cadres and the authority to weed out dudes who don't have the patience or skill set to be effective IPs. I also think IPs burn out after about 12-18 mos...you can only see the same mistakes made so many times before you start having seizures. Monitor their grading trends just as you monitor students' and watch for signs of burnout.

The program is a production line, but that doesn't mean you should leave good students by the side of the road just because their on-wing loses his shit when the stud's too slow with the trim.
And sometimes one person's frustrated kvetching starts a conversation where someone else chimes in with a good idea. :) Warning: rambling and mildly ale-fueled thoughts ahead; it's Friday.

Your followup point is exactly the source of my frustration. But then again, those best sticks behind the boat, or those dead eyes on the platform, are the guys who will save your bacon on a shitty night behind the boat.

In the current construct, it comes down to a "know your people" thing by the CO, because right now, the CO is really the only person to make that decision. The timing aspect doesn't help. Perhaps, if we could loosen up the tyranny of the YG like certain bigwigs have batted around, we may bias the system less to the person who learns the quickest, as opposed to the person who learns the best in the end. We tend to anoint the people who learn the fastest, because they're the ones who get to keep and use whatever "keys to the kingdom" quals the community values for the longest time. Changing the FITREP is one of RLSO's hobby horses which is worth a ride around the track; I'm partial to the Marine method of ranking every officer against all officers you've known, and getting two sets of (hopefully) independent eyes on a FITREP. Stack racking against summary groups is a pointless exercise, amongst arbitrary groups of people. It stifles communication from the CO to the board, and needlessly fucks over 1 of 1s.

There is also a cultural aspect to this argument I made. To paraphrase my first fleet CO, the people who succeed in Naval Air are the people who play along with the "frat party" atmosphere to some degree. But the successful ones also realize that ultimately, it's an act, and you do have to be a commissioned officer. The culture also (rightly) values taking on board blunt and unvarnished criticism, whatever your rank. The dark side to this is a certain subset of people short on empathy, and who see little problem in crossing the line into flat-out assholishness. To some extent, as I said above, this assholishness is the impatience of really talented people who see "average" performance as something more impressive that it typically is, because they're so far above it.

It's also due to our culture being able to be weaponized very easily, especially when you're on month 7 of a 6-month cruise, and everyone is on edge already. It's possible for people to land some truly dickish psychological blows, intentionally or not, and then turn around and hide behind "suck it up; I'm just busting on you." We prize taking the blunt criticism, and we should. But we need to be wary that when the "suck it up" bar is set high, leadership needs to really look hard for signs of "kiss up, kick down." I would be interested in seeing if any psych has ever studied the incidence of the so-called "dark triad" of personality traits in our business. Business executives, surgeons, and lawyers are known for attracting those types . . . are we? Might be interesting to find out. Again, this is ultimately a CO's job to police, and stop those people from getting the paper that will cause them to advance, even if they've got the stick skills. Some of the worst times I've had in this business were under a CO who did not exert the force of personality to pull the "I'm the boss" card and knock some figurative heads together. This let certain personality conflicts fester amongst the ready room. It sucked.

The culture of Navy Air itself is not a bad thing. But once you've put JO shenanigans aside, it's time to make sure that that culture is being used in a healthy way. That's not a plea for BS millennial trigger warnings, or for what the blue suiters call Sensitive New Age Pilots. But I can steal a march from our brethren in powder blue; my current boss is a former USAFWS staffer. He's a good dude, and proud of the credo they use: "Humble, Approachable, Credible." They're onto something there. Ultimately, it behooves those of us in a position to do the picking to pick replacements that are like that, and whose shenanigans are cheeky and fun, not cruel and tragic.
 
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Randy Daytona

Cold War Relic
pilot
Super Moderator
Solutions and problems man. Give me a solution to getting better instructors, and enough quantity to keep butts in fleet seats.

More experience generally has a positive effect on instruction - the highest time pilots were normally reservists in the SAU. Big Navy might want to utilize those guys more by having additional billets.
 

Uncle Fester

Robot Pimp
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
More experience generally has a positive effect on instruction - the highest time pilots were normally reservists in the SAU. Big Navy might want to utilize those guys more by having additional billets.

Agreed and I strongly believe the SAUs and the SAU model is an existing tool that the Navy could use to solve a lot of our problems.
 

danpass

Well-Known Member
Ghost Fleet .......

So much potential hampered by the seeming desire to mention every. single. fancy. possible. technology out there.

It made the book far too shallow.
 

squorch2

he will die without safety brief
pilot

Brett327

Well-Known Member
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
How do they define diffusion of military power? Is this a comparison between the Cold War era and the status quo and the variety of asymmetric threats in play?
 
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