Body builders tend to sink too, muscle weighs more than fat.
It's easy to say don't flail but if you're uncomfortable in water it is a natural reaction. The key is to come to grips with it as soon as possible and try to relax.
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Prone Float...more like Prone Sinking.
- Thread starter pilotboy17
- Start date
Body builders tend to sink too, muscle weighs more than fat.
It's easy to say don't flail but if you're uncomfortable in water it is a natural reaction. The key is to come to grips with it as soon as possible and try to relax.
Duh...muscle weights more than fat? Really? You don't say....
In a 200# person the difference between 10% BF (lean) and 5% (extremely lean--if someone is 5% they are SHREDDED) is 10# of fat vs 10# of muscle. I'm going to say that the difference in buoyancy between the two is minimal. Lung inflation, body position, and technique are much bigger contributors.
The 99% of water survival is maintaining one's calm. It's not easy, but it is the key. Stay in the zone, you'll pass. Once you flail a little, you'll enter a spiral and not recover. E.g. you accidentally suck a little water. Stay calm and cough for a second and you're fine. Freak out and try to get your head out of water entirely and you start bobbing more, which uses more energy, which makes one worry, which make you want more air, which means you need your head more out of the water, etc, etc.
I don't like swim qual myself, but I have done it enough to know what works and what doesn't.
Floppy_D
I am the hunted
phrogdriver said:
Dammit, phrogdriver...
Forgive me, but I had to do look it up. I've heard it before, but I wondered what the difference was. I'm sure someone has wondered how much of a difference it made, so I thought I'd kill it for good. Muscle density is 1.06 g/ml and fat density is (about) 0.9 g/ml. Thus, one liter of muscle would weight 1.06 kg and one liter of fat would weight 0.9 kg (ref.) So we get about an 18% difference in buoyancy. To make a mental model, a basketball is about 29" around, and has a displacement of about 410 in^3. If a cube of freshwater is 62.5lbs, a basketball provides just under 15 lbs of buoyancy. So, to gain the buoyancy of a basketball, one must simply gain 83 lbs of pure fat.
This confirms phrogdriver's arguement that anyone can float when they relax, and should convince anyone that they need not worry about floating. I stick to my guns in saying that the instructors over there will get you through all of this. I'm going to go put my nose in the corner for having actually looked that crap up. (I will then drink a beer for my efforts, because I guarantee one of you bastards has wondered the same.)
Lucy
Member
For those who have anxiety/fear with the water, and I know saying this is easier than doing, but from the moment you know you are going to be going to work on floating that day actively think of other things. Do not just try to supress the thoughts or fears, it doesn't help. But rather think of anything else, even while participating in the activity. This was how I got over heights and being underground, in one getgo each. Fears I had since childhood. Once you know you can do it, next time is easier. (Still not one to go crawling through a cave, but I am suppose to be skydiving in a few weeks.) Also, just being in the water will help. Spend enough time in the pool that you feel stupid and become a prune.
Best of Luck everyone!
Oh, hey, anyone have a link that shows proper swim forms, breaststroke and the sidestroke primarily? Just need a refresher. (pm'ing me or posting a visitor message works so to not distract from the maint topic of this thread)
Thanks,
Lucy
Best of Luck everyone!
Oh, hey, anyone have a link that shows proper swim forms, breaststroke and the sidestroke primarily? Just need a refresher. (pm'ing me or posting a visitor message works so to not distract from the maint topic of this thread)
Thanks,
Lucy
pilotboy17
New Member
I'm in your class as well. I've been in the water my entire life and lifeguarded/swim instructed for 10 years prior to service. Still, the prone float is difficult for me cause with the adrenalin of the test my HR gets up and I feel the need to breathe too rapidly for the test to be easy. The 5 mins I did at OCS (did it twice for 3rd and 2nd class tests same day) was incredibly difficult for me, so yes even some of the tests like heyjoe says are daunting for experienced swimmers but with practice you can make it. The only other consistent difficulty I heard and/or witnessed was instructors harping on people for form with the breaststroke, not getting the kick and arm motion times correctly. Out of 55 of us at OCS only 4 of us passed the 2nd class test because nobody was doing the breaststroke kick right. I'm sure the instructors will help you get it right before your tested on it. +1 for having the balls to tackle the problem and ask for help. Since your 1 of 2 coasties in the class I'm pretty sure I know who you are and I'll offer some help monday or tuesday if you want it. And yes I passed the 2nd class swim so I got ya covered on the correct form
Thanks! I could definitely use all the help I can get. I really appreciate this and everyone's positive comments. Btw, I know some of you have sent me a private message, but I can't reply unless I have a total of 10 posts. So 5 more to go.
pilotboy17
New Member
I was practicing again at the pool today to see where I was neutrally buoyant. The MWR pool at whiting is about 10 feet deep. I sank all the way to the bottom. I was hoping to stop somewhere in between, but I just kept going even with my knees bent. Something was probably wrong with my breathing or body position. I'll try again on Sunday.
Are you taking full breaths? How long are you holding your breath for? I'm pretty sure you're supposed to breathe every five seconds or so---do you really sink THAT fast?
Swim Instructor's Manual:
https://www.netc.navy.mil/nascweb/model_manager/files/swim/netc_1552/1552-16_JUL07_(combined).pdf
Everything you never wanted to know about swimming.
https://www.netc.navy.mil/nascweb/model_manager/files/swim/netc_1552/1552-16_JUL07_(combined).pdf
Everything you never wanted to know about swimming.
I did a little research on-line back to the originator of the Drownproofing technique and other up-to-date Prone Float/Deadman's Float on-line resources as well as an early AW thread discussing same issue. Appears that they all acknowledge some people are flat out negatively buoyant and it's critical to master the technique especially drawing in as much air as possible. Even then, you're going to sink more than the average person.
Note: I even ran across the way swim quals go at BUD/S (see negatively buoyant aspiring SEAL on far right)
Scientists should study you - that is incredible! Once you get through this (which you will), you should start building some lung capacity and train to bet people that you can walk across the bottom of the pool. I would pay to see that!!!
pilotboy17
New Member
When I sank 10 ft, I was doing a test to see if I would actually stop somewhere, unfortunately I don't. I took a full breath for that drill while holding it the entire time. I know for the actual prone float test, you should be holding breath for 5-7 seconds then come up for more air and repeat.
My friend who has been working me has also been watching and critiquing me on the prone float. Sometimes when I go down, he would lay his arm under my belly like a sling, to try to maintain the right position.
Even when I do hold my breath for about 5 seconds and try to come up for air, I may have already sunk 3 feet (from my point of view). At that point, I swim up to the surface vertically and end up in a tread water stance, grab air, and immediately roll back forward into prone position. I find it very tiring when I have to swim up and out of breath. From what I have seen, if you are doing it right, you should mainly stay in the prone float position even when grabbing air. The reason I can't do it is because I am already so far down.
pilotboy17
New Member
Definitely! I will have my waterproof camera ready for that one on video mode.
I haven't yet heard of anybody failing out of API because they could not pass the swimming portion. The instructors there are great, and they do not want to be the cause of you not becoming a pilot, so they will help you in any and all ways. The biggest key, like in flying, is being patient, taking an extra deep breath (when you can), and then handling the task at hand. And remember, once you get in full flight gear, the helmet is buoyant, so it well help.
pilotboy17
New Member
All,
Thanks again for the advice; it was very uplifting and made me not worry so much about it anymore, especially if I have to go to hold swim. My overall goal is to get my wings, not to be an Olympic swimmer while still making the Navy happy. I will just keep training and do whatever the instructors tell me.
v/r
Drew
Thanks again for the advice; it was very uplifting and made me not worry so much about it anymore, especially if I have to go to hold swim. My overall goal is to get my wings, not to be an Olympic swimmer while still making the Navy happy. I will just keep training and do whatever the instructors tell me.
v/r
Drew
You'll be fine man, trust me. I am absolutely horrible at the float (repeated it twice before I could finally do it). I just kept sinking and sinking. It ended up being a form thing, once I arched my back the right way, and got a bit of extra air in, I was ok. It still wasn't easy, and I absolutely hate it, but I survived it. Good luck!