"Senator, you're one of us". Yeah, my ass you are. It's time for McCain to find greener pastures. He lost my respect as a U.S. Senator with McCain-Feingold.
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Raising Arizona ... Guns, Illegals ... what next???
- Thread starter A4sForever
- Start date
McCain-Feingold?? Pish-tosh ... that was @ early 2000's ...
The good Senator had already lost my respect (and that of many of my peers) a LOT earlier than that ... and it had nothing to do w/ playing 'footsie' w/ Russ Feingold.
...and nothing has changed on that score.
Tell that to MADD. I spent two hours sitting in the back of a police car last Saturday night because I blew a .01. They get to keep me for two hours to see if the level goes up. It didn't. They also searched my car, because, I had a "gun case" in the backseat. The company I work for packages some of it's instruments in Plano cases.
Yeah, 'cause a fence will stop 'em. Really? They're jumping over and tunneling under fences at the border left and right.
As far as the alcohol incident, I cannot speak to that on experience, however, since you were detained and not arrested, they cannot search your car unless you consent to the search. You must have agreed to the search or else they would have had to get a warrant to search your car. Even if you had a gun case. So, remember, your 4th Amendment right is still protected but I am almost certain that since you probably said "I've got nothing to hide, search my car, I don't care! I'm am/was officer in the military / work for a reputable company" or something of the like, then you consented to the search. If you said, "NO! you can't search my car, I've got rights," then they would have not searched your car until a Judge signed a search warrant based on Probable Cause. Think real hard about what you said in your conversation with the LE personnel while you were being "detained" during your stop, and if it wasn't based on consent, then if you are not too wrapped up with their due diligence to let you go after 2 hours because your BAC didn't go up, then hire a lawyer to address your unlawful search of your car.
I can’t speak to rare’s experience but I have some minor experience and a great deal of observation here in AZ that leads me to discount his concerns. First, even the 287(g) federally trained officers have to sit and wait for Border Patrol or ICE to come pick up their catch. That is where the time is. Up until now if you had 18 illegals in a minivan pulled over for speeding, you had to baby sit them for a couple hours until the feds came. If you had a single or two, they may never come for them. You can’t book them into jail for a traffic offense and you can’t jail them just for the illegal immigration. You just sit and wait. Now, with the new law, in the same scenario using an officer’s discretion he can charge them with the AZ crime and book them into jail. Often times this is much faster than waiting on the feds. Practically, once in jail they will be transferred to the feds in mass every day or so. It also gets illegal’s into jail so all the proper checks and due diligence can be done. We had a cop shot in AZ by an illegal that was picked up by Phoenix PD but released because he was thought to be just an immigration case and the feds weren’t interested. The guy could have been jailed by this law, later held for the more dangerous stuff.
So this will cost some money. I can guarantee it will not cost more than the cost of illegal immigration on our community. Forget about things like schools and hospitals. The environment on the border is being destroyed. Drugs and human trafficking are serious crimes. Human trafficking preys on the Mexicans everyone thinks we hate. Rape, extortion, murder, indentured labor, all are products of illegal immigration and their victims are almost exclusively Mexican. AZ may bear the dollar cost but the illegal’s really pay. That makes it worth the money to Arizonians. The training required for enforcement is no different than when any other new law is put on the books, truly zilch. Cops know how to read statues. They don’t get hours of training every time the legislature excretes a new law. The training demanded by the Gov was just to placate concerns over profiling. I bet it won’t consist of more than a video to watch during in-service training.
Sure LE will have to invest some time. But because they have discretion it will not take time from other investigations or calls. In this state every cop cites and even books drunks, public urination, suspended license, failure to appear in traffic court, minor amounts of marijuana, underage drinking, etc. I didn’t spend much time in patrol before going to aviation, but when I worked in both the county and suburban contracted areas I never remember running from call to call. Even today, when flying patrol, I very rarely hear the sort of frenzy on the radio that indicates constant activity. LE has the time to enforce this. All the grass roots officer and deputy organizations support it. They must know something about how it will affect their work load.
voodooqueen
DAR Lapsarian
We will have to wait and see how prudently this is handled by local law enforcement. Maybe they will just focus on removing individuals who are a threat to public safety, rather than making a broad sweep.
People fuss about the Patriot Act also, but it has many detailed checks and balances, and I doubt that any of us has had Homeland Security digging through our underwear drawer for no apparent reason.
People fuss about the Patriot Act also, but it has many detailed checks and balances, and I doubt that any of us has had Homeland Security digging through our underwear drawer for no apparent reason.
Another lawyer, no doubt. Here is how it works. JIMC stopped lawfully. Police look in car (legal, it is called "on view") and see the Pelican case. Based on their "experience and training" (the actual legal requirement) cops know pelican cases are frequently used for gun storage and transport. So now they have a reason to search the car. Most people truly have no idea when a warrant is necessary or when their rights have to be read to them or what they can or can not withhold from the police. If JIMC did give permission to search it may still have been the least painful course of action. If you have nothing to hide you can still make the police get a warrant just to prove the point. You know how long it takes to get a warrant? You may call their bluff, but if not, you will be detained much longer and in the end they will find nothing any way.
Your call. Take one for the constitution if you will, I'd appreciate it.
It's called "Plain View" and they can only "seize" that item if they have probable cause to believe that it is part of a crime or it is positively identified as contraband. So you can still deny the search and I don't think that a reasonable person or a LE Officer would make the immediate association that the pelican case or case of the like contains contraband during a traffic stop or checkpoint that bagged you on .01 BAC. However, it is based on the circumstances and also the training and experience of the officer, their ability to articulate it to their DA/AUSA etc. I am not sure if I was in the Officer's position that I would Seize the object in this instance and would take the route of asking permission or "consent" to search. The guy was detained at a traffic stop that has the intent of citing people who are driving while intoxicated, and his record would come back quickly with no Warrants/Wants/Crimes in this instance since he is an upstanding citizen of our Country and society and I don't think there is any lawyer / prosecutor that would back the officer "seizing" the object in this instance. I'm with you, make them work for it if they really want it, eventually "Due Diligence" must prevail in this situation and they will release you in a timely manner if they cannot get approval for a warrant because of their lack of "Probable Cause" to even search the item or the car. They cannot get a "Warrant" off of "Reasonable Suspicion" in this case, only "Probable Cause." In fact, the 4th Amendment says, "without Probable Cause there will be no Warrant granted." So, you will stand there for what you may think is an unreasonable amount of time while the officer attempts to articulate to a Magistrate the Probable Cause necessary to search the item, but unless it is contraband and the officer knows it, or there is furtherance of a crime probably in progress, no Warrant will be given. I am thinking I would consent to the search in this particular instance to develop rapport with the officers who have detained you for something totally unrelated to the object. Anyway, this should go toward pointing out what is actually going through the mind of a LE Officer who is actually trying to do the right thing and protect citizens and patrons of our great Nation, States, Counties, Cities, Boroughs. Mind, I know that they are not all looking at the situation this way, but it makes sense in some clerical, convoluted sort of way.
Something I've always wondered about: when you drive on base, you become subject to a virtual unlimited ''agree to search of your person and/or vehicle'' ... no questions asked, I believe.
What's the difference?? 'Cause it's a military/federal reservation??
What's the difference?? 'Cause it's a military/federal reservation??
Mostly with you on all this, except, I made no reference to a seizure of the Pelican Case or any suspected contraband. The search of the vehicle based on the officer's knowledge that Pelicans are often associated with gun cases is for officer safety, not necessarily making a case, for firearms or anything else.
Yep, I know. I made the reference. If he is not being arrested, he may be "Frisked" for officer safety and any unlocked container may be "frisked" as well for officer safety only if it is directly accessible from the driver seat. Other than that, I'm with you. Once he is detained and away from the container, then there is no need to frisk or search the container until there is either an Arrest, of which then they can "search incident to arrest" or, if no arrest, back around to original consent or Warrant based on Probable Cause. I'm with ya bro. I gotta go fly!
Making me jealous!