Raising Arizona ... Guns, Illegals ... what next???

[scoolbubba]

Rare, I respect you for the job you do, I don't want it and couldn't do it, but I gotta point out the flaw in your logic. "No crime committed in the city" doesn't count for a thing when you are in the city, county, state, and country illegally. It is everyone's problem.

 

[rare21]

hey I believe you, but I cant throw a rock here and not hit an illegal alien. For us here its a back burner issue. Also to clarify, every morning a Border Patrol unit comes to our jail to check for immigration status on all arrestees. The brunt of their investigation is to ask where they were born. If they are here illegally they put a detainer on them and after they are done with any punishment here they are deported. They are back a few days later.

 

[wink]

And once the papers publish a few stories of brown skinned American citizens with Spanish accents getting "harassed" by police because they forgot their wallets at home, this easy solution will come to a grinding halt.

You may see articles like that, but it won't be the truth of the matter. If you don't have ID on you and give them your name they can call it in and check the data base. Furthermore, this is all based on a reasonable suspicion and probable cause. So a guy doesn't have a wallet or ID. What else has he done and what are the circumstances? Maybe he is illegal, but just not having a wallet when out jogging or walking your dog does not make for reasonable suspicion that a person is an illegal immigrant. or give an officer probable cause to further detain. BFD

Thanks for the thread merge. I guess I have been away from AW too long to properly search for an existing thread. Like I ranted, we even have people here taking positions based on news reports and what partisans have said on TV. Now maybe Hacker will read the the law from the links provided and be satisfied it won't be like Nazi Germany in AZ.

 

[scoolbubba]

hey I believe you, but I cant throw a rock here and not hit an illegal alien. For us here its a back burner issue. Also to clarify, every morning a Border Patrol unit comes to our jail to check for immigration status on all arrestees. The brunt of their investigation is to ask where they were born. If they are here illegally they put a detainer on them and after they are done with any punishment here they are deported. They are back a few days later.

What does LE want done to make your jobs easier? Would securing the border Iron Curtain style do the trick...?

 

[HackerF15E]

Like I ranted, we even have people here taking positions based on news reports and what partisans have said on TV. Now maybe Hacker will read the the law from the links provided and be satisfied it won't be like Nazi Germany in AZ.[/I][/B]

Thanks, but I actually did read it. My stated opinion on the matter remains unchanged.

Long live the Constitution.

 

[rare21]

What does LE want done to make your jobs easier? Would securing the border Iron Curtain style do the trick...?

The border is not the problem, crimes against people are the problem which is our (the police) main issue. There are not enough resources, money and street cops to supplement the Border Patrol. We have tried with programs such as Border Star down here where we basically supplement the Border Patrol while getting overtime. It cost more than they got out of it. I can see Arizona local law enforcement shaking their heads thinking that the pressure will be there to perform this new service, but the money nor resources will be enough.

If you want to make my job easier...lock your vehicles and take the keys, install lights on the exterior of your home to deter theives, copy the serial numbers off your valuables so they can be tracked, wave at me with all your fingers not just one, stop watching CSI, and dont tell me how to do my job.

 

[Flash]

I REALLY get tired of the bullshit and rationalizations that some (most?) of you boys on the 'left' blow out your blow-holes on this website ... it doesn't matter what the issue is ... you can always be counted on to take a 'less than American' stance.

.... and what do I mean w/ that semi-inflammatory comment???

You guys who are 'against' what 70% of the people from AZ are trying to do (and soon to be 70% of Tejas voters with a new, soon to be copied from AZ Texas bill??) ... and you are only tryin' to convince yourselves for whatever-the-fuck-reasons your pathetic upbringing encumbered you with that the new AZ law is 'bad' ... or 'unconstitutional' ... or 'mean spirited' ... or whatever bogus reason you care to list ... AND you are either intellectually dishonest -- or you are dumber, and I mean really ..... really .... really ... really ... DUMBER -- than whale-shit on the bottom of the deep blue sea ... and that's pretty fucking dumb.........

I don't know whether the above is pathetic or funny, probably both. If you hadn't already noticed I could really give a fuck what you think of me, you are just another faceless poster on the internet to me. And while being called 'un-American' by anyone else would be an insult to me it just seems to be a periodic thing for you, so no big deal........same crap, different day. Though I am sure you will be disingenuous and say you really didn't, I am just reading too much into what you said. I honestly think that a lot of the bullshit you spout like this just show how immature, close-minded and just plain stupid you often can be. And the shocking thing is that you are surprised that someone calls you on it. So while you seem to periodically seem to have these spasms here on AW you can rest assured that I will continue to be a thorn in your side here by adding some fairness and balance. So go ahead and continue with your impotent rage here and I will continue defending Mom, apple pie and all the porn you can surf on the internet. Hope that lets you sleep better tonight.

On the the 'problems' with the law is that I think it could easily result in abuse. A friend of mine in high school, who was the class president, NROTC scholarship award winner and all around good guy, was stopped 5 times driving about 25 miles from Maryland, through DC to Virginia one day. His crime? He was driving his dad's Lexus and happened to be black. Didn't get one ticket but got plenty pissed. So what was the point? What did that accomplish? An extreme example but it does happen. Not to mention the practical aspects that I mentioned and rare21 discussed.

So that's it, I disagree, big fucking deal. Get over it and move on.

Have a nice day !

 

[Spekkio]

Because clearly, no one could corroborate his or her immigration status through any other means, like maybe an address that matches up to the name they give, or a social security number, or hell, maybe he gets taken down to county and the great mystery of who the fuck is this guy, and where is he from gets solved there. SO FUCKING BE IT, because if he's here legally then he gets set free, and if he's not, then his ass gets mailed back wherever he came from, postage due.

The problem with this law, as everyone against it would have you believe, is that it requires common sense on the part of the people enforcing it. Since it's such a foreign entity to our elected representatives, they can't fathom how us lesser people could possibly possess it. You see, our law enforcement officers would have to be trusted to use a modicum of common sense and good judgment. However would all the police officers in these hispanic communities, who grew up in hispanic neighborhoods speaking spanish, ever communicate with someone who didn't have their identification on them?! Impossible to overcome, throw the baby out with the bathwater, and shame on us for thinking America was meant for Americans.

You know what Spekkio, you're right, we should probably just throw open the borders, rename ourselves the People's Republic of North Mexico and go with it. You've poked a hole in the entire premise that no one in all the collective wisdom of Arizona could have possibly foreseen. Thank goodness you were here, that immigration crisis thing could have gotten dicey!

Hey, I just pointed out something that will inevitably happen. You can get mad about it, but it won't change a damn thing.

Here's my beef with your argument: you make too many assumptions. While yes, most cops can employ a modicum of common sense and good judgment, there are enough out there who wouldn't or couldn't that would make life miserable for everyone. I don't know if you or someone you know has ever been a victim of racial profiling, but it's extremely frustrating for those people when they're pulled over just for being the wrong color. To move the issue to something more universal, I don't know if you've ever had an interaction with a police officer who felt it was his duty to find something to arrest you for at any cost. I have had such interactions, and so have a lot of people I know. That's why rare gets waved at with one finger instead of 5... because those few bad experiences leave enough sour taste in people's mouths to hate the entire organization.

You also make the false assumption that cops patrol areas in which they grew up.

This country was founded on the fact that people have rights. I don't have to worry about walking down the street and being interrogated by police regarding my citizenship. I don't have to worry about being interrogated about my citizenship when I get pulled over because laws exist to protect me from that. I still wouldn't after this law was passed because I'm white, but this law would take away those rights for people who aren't. And while actual citizens will eventually get released after several hours of being treated like a criminal, it still results in someone's rights being violated and time lost.

What would you do if you owned a small business and Mr. Lopez was late for the 3rd time in a row because the cops decided to pull him over to check his background on the way to work, and he didn't even get a ticket because he wasn't breaking any other law? At best you'd be annoyed at the loss of profit and the system you're defending, and at worst you'd think twice about hiring Latinos because it's too much of a hassle.

I'll tell you what else: most illegal immigrants I've encountered work 10x harder than any white American I know, and they get paid 10x less to do it. While the fact that they are breaking the law and don't pay taxes is annoying to me, at least many of them try really hard to be working, productive members of society in order to have a better life for themselves and their children. There is nothing more American than that. I can't, for the life of me, figure out why our federal government is so intent on locking people who bust their asses for a better life out of our society. I can also tell you that many, if not most, white Americans enjoy the benefits of this cheap source of labor, all while complaining that illegal immigrants are taking "their" jobs.

 

[scoolbubba]

And I hate the argument that allows people to jump to the head of a line for a job when there are millions of Africans, Asians, and Europeans waiting at the door to come into the country the right way. I don't care if an illegal is hardworking or not; I don't care if they take jobs that Americans won't do (Which is a crock of shit, illegals will just do it for less, hurting everyone in the long run anyways), I don't care how productive they are, or how much it hurts your delicate sense of personal rights that people will have to carry ID, THEY ARE STILL HERE ILLEGALLY. End. Of. Discussion.

 

[Spekkio]

And I hate the argument that allows people to jump to the head of a line for a job when there are millions of Africans, Asians, and Europeans waiting at the door to come into the country the right way. I don't care if an illegal is hardworking or not; I don't care if they take jobs that Americans won't do (Which is a crock of shit, illegals will just do it for less, hurting everyone in the long run anyways), I don't care how productive they are, or how much it hurts your delicate sense of personal rights that people will have to carry ID, THEY ARE STILL HERE ILLEGALLY. End. Of. Discussion.

People jump to the head of the line because American citizens hire them. This is already illegal, so making it illegal again isn't going to change anything.

What makes businessmen do this are minimum wage laws that require them to pay people over $7/hr for unskilled labor, and a tax code that punishes people for expanding their businesses.

You still didn't answer my question: what would you do as a small business owner if Mr. Lopez, whose citizenship you verified prior to hiring, was late multiple times in a short period because he was held up by cops investigating his citizenship on the way to work? If you think this law would only affect latino looking people who speak with an accent, you are mistaken.

PS: And yes, illegal or not, I have much more respect for a Mexican who is willing to grit his teeth and forge a better life for himself than a Russian mail-order-bride who earns her citizenship from a marriage of convenience.

 

[m26]

I don't begrudge illegals, and can't see why anyone would (at least the hardworking, honest ones Spekster envisions). I would do the exact same thing if I was born into a situation like that.

That said, scoolbubba is absolutely right. We only have so many vacancies, and we want to fill them with an equitable system that allows us to benefit from our immigration, rather than suffer. That system is not 'whoever can slink under the fence at night without getting caught.' Yes, it sucks that we have to send poor people away so they can be even poorer, but that's the risk they took sneaking into the country. Tough.

 

[Spekkio]

There's another assumption: we don't have an equitable system, nor do we have one that allows people to immigrate in anywhere near a timely fashion. Immigration by legal means is a broken process unless you marry an American.

 

[m26]

I did not say that we have an equitable system.

And I do not think the marry-an-American system is flawless, either.

 

[Mumbles]

I think we can all agree, hopefully, that all, (or most) human beings,(regardless of race, color, creed, et.al.) want better lives for themselves and their kin.
That being said.......this Immigration Reform Bill is not about benevolent intentions at all. It IS all about pandering and cultivating a broader political base come this November.
Rules for Radicals #13: "Pick a target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it. This is right out of the playbook.

The other question I can't help asking is: why is this administration and it's proxies in Congress, after exhausting soooo much political capital on health care over the past year, trying to put this on the front burner now?? With the majority of the American public against it and demanding that jobs/economy be addressed.

 

[scoolbubba]

You still didn't answer my question: what would you do as a small business owner if Mr. Lopez, whose citizenship you verified prior to hiring, was late multiple times in a short period because he was held up by cops investigating his citizenship on the way to work? If you think this law would only affect latino looking people who speak with an accent, you are mistaken.

I wouldn't care. It would be the price of doing business knowing that I'm not wasting my payroll taxes on people who decided the proper process didn't apply to them. If it means another business owner isn't exploiting illegal labor to pad his profit margin, I'm pretty sure I'd be all about it.