Show me some facts then.
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Raising Arizona ... Guns, Illegals ... what next???
- Thread starter A4sForever
- Start date
Show me some facts then.
Spekkio
He bowls overhand.
I don't know where healthcare comes into this, or where you got the idea that I'm a proponent of Obamacare. But that has nothing to do with this discussion, anyway.
To answer your question: I'm the type of person who walks around without my social security card. I do this because if I ever drop my wallet, I am less prone to identity theft when someone doesn't have my social security number on them. I also have, on occassion, left my house and forgot my wallet. Shit happens, and I take solace in the fact that I don't have to worry about wasting a day going to jail, calling a lawyer, and proving to the cops why I shouldn't be deported. I'll get a ticket for driving without a license, pay the fine, and move on with life.
I have intentionally left my apartment without a license when going to the gym with a friend and he is driving. I do this because it's cumbersome to carry a wallet when I have a pair of gym shorts with no pockets on. I take solace in the fact that if my friend gets pulled over, I don't have to go to jail, call a lawyer, and prove to the cops why I shouldn't be deported.
I don't know the requirements for obtaining a driver's license in AZ, but I know that it's possible to obtain one without citizenship or a green card in some states. Is AZ going to research the citizenship for all out of state licenses?
You blame the DNC for this, but the GOP is just as at fault. Small business owners are more likely to be members of the GOP, and the guys in businesses like construction, landscaping, and fruit farming aren't going to want their source of labor to suddenly disappear overnight.
You go running with an ID on you? You've never forgotten your wallet? You really want this to be a country where it's compulsory to carry ID everywhere?
Cops can already ask for ID if your state says they can. This doesn't introduce some new radical breach of citizen rights by requiring you to show ID to cops.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hiibel_v._Sixth_Judicial_District_Court_of_Nevada
Most Arizonans want this. I'm sure there are plenty of other states out there where you don't have to show ID. Thank goodness for states' rights
I'm glad that we're finally getting this issue into the forefront of political debate and making some progress. People are fed up and taking a stand. Maybe other states will follow suit as a surge of illegals leaving AZ heads to their doorstep.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hiibel_v._Sixth_Judicial_District_Court_of_Nevada
Most Arizonans want this. I'm sure there are plenty of other states out there where you don't have to show ID. Thank goodness for states' rights
I'm glad that we're finally getting this issue into the forefront of political debate and making some progress. People are fed up and taking a stand. Maybe other states will follow suit as a surge of illegals leaving AZ heads to their doorstep.
Uh, yea? How hard is it to slide a mil ID and a credit card behind an iPhone in an armband. It's actually not difficult at all, since I seem to manage to do it every time I go for a run. Which of your rights is being violated by requiring you to identify yourself?
And remember, you don't even need to carry ID to identify yourself...it's as easy as being truthful when someone asks you your name and where you live, especially since probable cause is usually required to get that far.
No one is probing you at their leisure. The law states that you have to be able to show an ID when caught for another crime or offense. They're going to ask you for an ID anyways when you're speeding or whatever so what's the big deal? I've never had a cop say "Well Sir, you were speeding/littering back there, but it's ok because you're white so I won't need to see your ID" and then give me the Good 'Ol Boy slap on the back and send me on my way. Come on, Really?
I never said this was about you or your beliefs. Watch the news. The same DEMs who advocated Obamacare are the ones pissing and stewing over this relatively mundane law. Not to mention crying racism and all sorts of other BS.
Yes, I put my car key and student ID/Driver's License in my gym shorts when I run. I don't leave the house without my wallet, and if I did, I have an expired copy of my DL in my car so I'll have my DL number and proof that I do have one just in case. I didn't say compulsory, but you should be able to produce some sort of ID relatively easily. If you can't do so and you're close to the border then we probably have good reason to ask you to verify your citizenship.
It's not just for "crimes or offenses," my sources say. This issue has nothing to do with race or ethnicity, either. It's very close to a matter of whether one can simply exist without identification inside this country.
This whole illegal immigration issue is idiotic on all fronts. There will be no reasonable solutions presented on this, but it will be an excellent source of wheel spinning for both branches of the RepubliCrats nationally.
If you are caught breaking the law and a police officer asks you for ID and you are unable to provide it, I'm pretty sure you'd be told to stand the fuck by until you could prove your identity---in Arizona or any other state. Citizen or not.
Fixed for you. Or do you mean they just let me go if they catch me breaking the law but I produce an ID? I'm kind of a big deal, you know.
Of course. Are you detained indefinitely every time you go 39 in a 35? It is illegal, and gives the police the right to check your identity and check for warrants, etc. But if you check out, even if you get a ticket, you'll be on your way. No ID and you'll be sticking around for a while.
I'm interested at the least at how much banter this has generated on AW for a minor change in the law. Being a former Army Aviator / Officer and knowing a lot of LE officers, I know there are somethings that exist with all Military officers, Commanders, LE Officers, FED Agents and the like, and that is this: Discretion, Due Diligence, Investigative skill, Freedom to use skills, training and experience to find out what is really going on and determine if there is something unjust, not normal, or plain criminal going on right before your eyes. All the DOD / Military people that defend our great nation, what is so hard to understand when Illegal Immigration starts effecting your way of life to the point where you fear for you life, liberty and ability to survive. AZ, NM, TX and CA have problems and not enough FED man power to deal with it. There is literally a WAR going on there. I don't quite understand what you all have against the state standing up to plate and making it official law to be able to check your status, and there are Driver's licenses that do show Citizenship status, they are called "enhanced" driver's licenses and are part of the WHTI or "Western Hemisphere Travel Initiative". If you are willing to go to a foreign land and defend freedom for the citizens you are and who you represent, then don't hamstring those who decide to do it from within the borders or your own country who do the same thing here. I am positive, if there is a true infringment of civil rights and the fact that someone get's detained too long in their opinion to figure out their identity and where they reside or where they were born or how they became a citizen or Legal permanent resident or are on a current Visa status, that the law states if you are here for that purpose, you must carry the valid documentation at all times, they will deal with it accordingly. It's not bad to have an opinion or debate about this, but I am widely suprised to see that most of you who are already employed by the DOD thinking that this is such a raw deal. Just my .02 on this. But you should consider what citizens are actually dealing with with criminals (not just illegals but violent illegals, the same types of extremists we are dealing with overseas) who come across the border with nothing but ill intentions. If you are coming here for the American Dream, we welcome you with open arms, get a visa, go to immigration, get the paperwork, take the patriotic test and oath and become a citizen. It's not hard and it's far from impossible. This is diluting our economy, it's increasing our unemployment rate and throwing our deficit through the throws of being non-recoverable. Arizona is simply taking action.
Your “sources” ? My being informed by the FACTS makes me smarter and more reliable than any “sources”. If your “sources” tell you something other then what is factually known about this subject then they are simply making stuff up. Do your “sources” meet you in empty parking garages and use code words?
Sure one can exist in this country without ID. You just can’t drive a car, fly on planes (or, I believe, buy a Greyhound ticket), leave the country, get insurance, own land, rent anywhere reputable, get any credit, open a bank account, or be legally employed (SSN card required which requires ID). So I guess your idealized freeman would have to live in a tent on public land, be highly restricted in his travels, grow what he eats or live off the land (hunting would be illegal without a hunting/fishing lic), and beg for any money he needs. No problem, unless he breaks the law, like poaching, tax evasion for excessive cash income, overstaying at the national park camp ground or gives the police any reasonable suspicion to question him. Then he must be able ID himself. Moreover, 5 years ago the US Supreme court upheld a Nevada law that requires individuals ID themselves. Do you know what is done with smart ass suspects or criminals that refuse to ID themselves in most counties? They are booked as John or Jane Does. There are lots of John Does to sort through while smart ass sits in his cell. That takes a long time. Effectively, the debate is over. If that makes you weep then you will have no tears for the very real internet privacy concerns of today and the future.
Yawn. Let's talk about my "sources" for a moment. According to the azleg.gov link posted by someone named wink on some website I visit, this provision "Requires a reasonable attempt to be made to determine the immigration status of a person during any legitimate contact made by an official or agency of the state or a county, city, town or political subdivision (political subdivision) if reasonable suspicion exists that the person is an alien who is unlawfully present in the U.S."
So that settles the point as to whether it's just for "crimes or offenses." It's not just for crimes or offenses, but any 'legitimate' contact with any official or agency of any level of government. Firemen, utilities, etc., all based upon a "reasonable suspicion." What constitutes a reasonable suspicion, exactly? We shall see, but I suspect it will have a lot to do with trivialities which have nothing whatsoever to do with ones citizenship.
What you said:
What the law says:
-Only LEOs may make this determination. The law states that they must be LEOs of a county, city, etc.... i.e. county sheriff, city police, state police, capital police, etc. It is defined broadly like that to encompass all legitimate law enforcement entities in the state. This does not mean that any representative of the listed bodies may make that determination.
-Lawful contact is quite a different thing from "legitimate contact." The latter implies that if you're having a conversation with a LEO who is not actively violating your constitutional rights he can inquire after ID if he comes up with reasonable suspicion. The actual text means that the LEO must be engaged with a suspect in a normal situation where the suspect would otherwise be obligated to produce ID. The AZ house sent an amendment up to make this even clearer, changing the text to "lawful stop or detention," although I don't know the status of that legislation.
-Reasonable suspicion is exactly what it sounds like. A situation in which a reasonable person would find it likely that an individual is guilty of a certain offense. The exact boundaries of this will be shaped by the appellate courts after every single person caught up by this cries racism to the 9th circuit.
What the law says:
-Only LEOs may make this determination. The law states that they must be LEOs of a county, city, etc.... i.e. county sheriff, city police, state police, capital police, etc. It is defined broadly like that to encompass all legitimate law enforcement entities in the state. This does not mean that any representative of the listed bodies may make that determination.
-Lawful contact is quite a different thing from "legitimate contact." The latter implies that if you're having a conversation with a LEO who is not actively violating your constitutional rights he can inquire after ID if he comes up with reasonable suspicion. The actual text means that the LEO must be engaged with a suspect in a normal situation where the suspect would otherwise be obligated to produce ID. The AZ house sent an amendment up to make this even clearer, changing the text to "lawful stop or detention," although I don't know the status of that legislation.
-Reasonable suspicion is exactly what it sounds like. A situation in which a reasonable person would find it likely that an individual is guilty of a certain offense. The exact boundaries of this will be shaped by the appellate courts after every single person caught up by this cries racism to the 9th circuit.
Spekkio
He bowls overhand.
Why would I ever do a silly thing like that?
"Lawful contact" to me means any contact between a law enforcement official and a private citizen which is not illegal. Since it isn't illegal for a cop to walk up to someone on the street and speak to them, that would constitute lawful contact.
However, I don't speak legalese, so maybe I'm way off.