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Road to 350: What Does the US Navy Do Anyway?

hscs

Registered User
pilot
USNI: Senate Armed Services Bill Directs Navy to Start a Preliminary Design Effort for a Light Carrier, Pluses Up Shipbuilding Totals Over Trump Budget

If the purpose of a 'light carrier' is just "more hulls with strike capability, cheaper," then the most efficient way of doing that would seem to be building more non-well-deck America-class. Stand up some Navy "light" air wings with a mix of -35Bs and 'Hawks if the Marines don't want to/can't meet the extra requirement. As opposed to designing a new class, which is not going to get any new hulls in the water in less than 15 years, given our ship acquisition processes. Even a modified America-class with cats and AG would add a lot of programmatic risk. All you gain with CATOBAR is E-2 capability, which ain't nothing, but is it worth the squeeze?
Agree - not sure why we are messing with the catapults. It will likely add a lot of cost and complications to a design that is already under production. I am guessing that two catapults would put a major strain on the ship's current steam and/or electrical system requiring more systems to be integrated into the platform.

I think the simpler answer would be to use the -35Bs / helos as previously mentioned.
 

nittany03

Recovering NFO. Herder of Programmers.
pilot
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Someone please explain to me how a CVW equivalent distributed amongst multiple CVLs is supposed to do effective strike planning whilst at EMCON/River City . . .
 

Pags

N/A
pilot
Someone please explain to me how a CVW equivalent distributed amongst multiple CVLs is supposed to do effective strike planning whilst at EMCON/River City . . .
Would it need to? Or could you develop new doctrine that would enable a CVWL (registered trademark) to do its stuff in EMCON? An EMCON environment implies that there's going to be a lot of changes to the routine way of doing business.

If you had two CSGs against an enemy in an EMCON environment tomorrow would the challenge be any different?
 

Treetop Flyer

Well-Known Member
pilot
Would it need to? Or could you develop new doctrine that would enable a CVWL (registered trademark) to do its stuff in EMCON? An EMCON environment implies that there's going to be a lot of changes to the routine way of doing business.

If you had two CSGs against an enemy in an EMCON environment tomorrow would the challenge be any different?
Plus with multiple decks you get multiple deck cycles, and less eggs in one basket.
 

Pags

N/A
pilot
If you want to fight the war on or take the war to the enemy's doorstep you're going to need a way to get your fighters there. If your enemy happens to be an ocean away then the easiest way to get your fighters there is on a boat. And if your enemy has lots of fighters then you need lots of carriers to get them there. A CVL based on an existing LHA/D hull plan would be a relatively easy way to get more hulls in the water faster. Think about history last time we fought an enemy across the reaches of the pacific: within 6-9mo of the start of WWII at least half of the pre-war pacific fleet capital ships had been sunk. To overcome Japan we had to build not only a bunch of CVs but also a lot of CVLs and CVEs. The CVLs were a crash build program when it was realized that there wasn't enough carriers so USN looked at ways to get more CVs in the water. They looked at converting BBs, CBs, and CLs. CLs won out as the least bad option and were modified in to CVLs. The CVLs were a wartime compromise design that had a lot of issues but theses were offset by the fact that the CVLs could take planes to sea and keep up with the fast CVs. If during the first days and months of the next possible war we lose half of our capital ships having some more decks available would mitigate those losses. Sure, a CVL wouldn't be perfect but it might again represent the least bad option.
 

Uncle Fester

Robot Pimp
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
I can see the point of the idea. We need more carriers for the presence/power projection mission. Building up the CVN force is not realistic in the near-term; even getting back to 12 is ambitious. NNSY can only build them so quickly, and $12bn a pop means you can't accelerate the build much. America-class, on the other hand, are already under construction, with a finalized design, and can be built at conventional yards. Building more of them - with no or minor tweaks - would be a relatively quick, low-programmatic risk way to build up the carrier force. Making a STOVL carrier design CATOBAR-capable is way more complicated and expensive than it looks on the face of it - the Brits found that out when they considered adding cat/AG to Prince of Wales. It's an 80% solution, but that's much better than disappearing down the decades-long rabbit hole of design studies, program reviews, over budget/behind schedule. Short version: if we want light carriers, we have a perfectly good light carrier design in service now, and for God's sake let's stop reinventing the wheel.

So: redesignate the Flight 0 LHA-6 (America and Tripoli) as CVAs. Build 3-4 more of them, which would put a couple on each coast and one or two for FDNF. Their builds can be sequenced in between LHAs. Maybe quicker if NASSCO can build them as well as HII. Stand up a light/strike/whatever CVW for each coast, with two 10-a/c F-35B VFAs and a four-'Hawk HSC/M for each boat.

Of course, this is all fantasy unless and until Congress repeals the Budget Control Act and we get a massive expansion of the shipbuilding and aircraft procurement budget. But I think if the end goal is more hulls with dedicated fixed-wing strike capability, this is a hell of a lot more realistic than any other proposals out there.
 

azguy

Well-Known Member
None
So: redesignate the Flight 0 LHA-6 (America and Tripoli) as CVAs. Build 3-4 more of them, which would put a couple on each coast and one or two for FDNF. Their builds can be sequenced in between LHAs. Maybe quicker if NASSCO can build them as well as HII. Stand up a light/strike/whatever CVW for each coast, with two 10-a/c F-35B VFAs and a four-'Hawk HSC/M for each boat.

I think this is a no-brainer, assuming there's a documented shortfall of fighters available in the MCO scenarios.

Question though... I remember the Commandant of the Marine Corps saying that he could fit 24(?) F-35Bs on the America-class. Being pretty clueless about deck cycle times, esp on L-ships, what kind of sortie generation are they capable of? Is it feasible to launch two divisions in one cycle?
 
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Treetop Flyer

Well-Known Member
pilot
I can see the point of the idea. We need more carriers for the presence/power projection mission. Building up the CVN force is not realistic in the near-term; even getting back to 12 is ambitious. NNSY can only build them so quickly, and $12bn a pop means you can't accelerate the build much. America-class, on the other hand, are already under construction, with a finalized design, and can be built at conventional yards. Building more of them - with no or minor tweaks - would be a relatively quick, low-programmatic risk way to build up the carrier force. Making a STOVL carrier design CATOBAR-capable is way more complicated and expensive than it looks on the face of it - the Brits found that out when they considered adding cat/AG to Prince of Wales. It's an 80% solution, but that's much better than disappearing down the decades-long rabbit hole of design studies, program reviews, over budget/behind schedule. Short version: if we want light carriers, we have a perfectly good light carrier design in service now, and for God's sake let's stop reinventing the wheel.

So: redesignate the Flight 0 LHA-6 (America and Tripoli) as CVAs. Build 3-4 more of them, which would put a couple on each coast and one or two for FDNF. Their builds can be sequenced in between LHAs. Maybe quicker if NASSCO can build them as well as HII. Stand up a light/strike/whatever CVW for each coast, with two 10-a/c F-35B VFAs and a four-'Hawk HSC/M for each boat.

Of course, this is all fantasy unless and until Congress repeals the Budget Control Act and we get a massive expansion of the shipbuilding and aircraft procurement budget. But I think if the end goal is more hulls with dedicated fixed-wing strike capability, this is a hell of a lot more realistic than any other proposals out there.
At least the new Plopter COD CMVKRFA-22B would work for both types of carriers.
 

Flash

SEVAL/ECMO
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
...We need more carriers for the presence/power projection mission. Building up the CVN force is not realistic in the near-term; even getting back to 12 is ambitious....America-class, on the other hand...Building more of them - with no or minor tweaks - would be a relatively quick, low-programmatic risk way to build up the carrier force...a STOVL carrier design...It's an 80% solution....

Do we really need more carriers, and that quickly? I don't think the America LHD/CVL idea is a great one, it gives us a jump-jet carrier with much less capability than a CVN for what? I don't see that as an 80% solution, maybe not even 50% one. My biggest worry is that folks will see the new 'CVLs' as carriers just like a CVN, because a 'carrier' is just a 'carrier' to the vast majority of folks to include the ones funding us, and it'll eat the CVN fleet alive in the process. That was the fear behind the Sea Control Ship (SCS) concept in the 70's and it was rightfully killed as a result. Especially with the massive amount of additional funding and manning needed to build up and maintain that fleet and its attendant air wing, escorts and even new equipment (AEW?). It is a bit like thinking about bringing the JFK back, it doesn't seem to be a very well thought out plan when you start diving into the details.

I think a fundamental debate underpinning all of this is just what the 'requirements' are for our carrier fleet. My current job deals with requirements and not all can or even should be fulfilled, and I think that is the case for our carrier fleet.
 

Uncle Fester

Robot Pimp
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Do we really need more carriers, and that quickly? I don't think the America LHD/CVL idea is a great one, it gives us a jump-jet carrier with much less capability than a CVN for what? I don't see that as an 80% solution, maybe not even 50% one. My biggest worry is that folks will see the new 'CVLs' as carriers just like a CVN, because a 'carrier' is just a 'carrier' to the vast majority of folks to include the ones funding us, and it'll eat the CVN fleet alive in the process. That was the fear behind the Sea Control Ship (SCS) concept in the 70's and it was rightfully killed as a result. Especially with the massive amount of additional funding and manning needed to build up and maintain that fleet and its attendant air wing, escorts and even new equipment (AEW?). It is a bit like thinking about bringing the JFK back, it doesn't seem to be a very well thought out plan when you start diving into the details.

I think a fundamental debate underpinning all of this is just what the 'requirements' are for our carrier fleet. My current job deals with requirements and not all can or even should be fulfilled, and I think that is the case for our carrier fleet.

I don't disagree with any of that. Every time the escort/light carrier revival idea comes up again, we rediscover that all you get is a less-capable boat for not much less money. My point was that, if we're going down the road of quickly expanding the carrier force, we're better off building America-class with Navy F-35B's - building more of what we've got, in other words - than disappearing down a "new carrier" design study that will add decades and dollars for marginally more capability.
 

Randy Daytona

Cold War Relic
pilot
Super Moderator
I don't disagree with any of that. Every time the escort/light carrier revival idea comes up again, we rediscover that all you get is a less-capable boat for not much less money. My point was that, if we're going down the road of quickly expanding the carrier force, we're better off building America-class with Navy F-35B's - building more of what we've got, in other words - than disappearing down a "new carrier" design study that will add decades and dollars for marginally more capability.

Didn't you mention that the Brits looked at converting their new carriers to a catapult and an angled deck - but came to the conclusion it was just too painful? Have you got any further details?

As Flash mentioned, we have to be careful about the presentation of the Navy as being built around a 10 (or 11 or 12) carrier fleet. Perhaps the Navy can better market it as a 10+10 fleet to emphasize both the CVN's and the big amphibs.
 
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