Road to 350: What Does the US Navy Do Anyway?

[Walt6541]

I used to manage the security force at BSR for a time when I first left law enforcement. It was my understanding that it's exceedingly rare for commissioned naval vessels to be repaired there due to physical security constraints. That place would be near impossible to fully and properly secure. We had three USNS vessels in there during my short time with the company, but no commissioned warships. Did get to take a walk around Comfort when she was in dock, that's one impressively capable ship from a medical standpoint!

I still work in the area and I like to stop by and pop up on the public viewing deck when I have time. USNS Burlington, a catamaran high speed Speahead class vessel is there right now.

 

[Randy Daytona]

In addition to the shipyard problems, this appeared today:

MARAD Head ‘Not At All Confident’ Ready Reserve Fleet Could be Crewed in a Crisis - USNI News

The head of the Maritime Administration “was not at all confident” that all the ships in the Ready Reserve Fleet could be crewed if called to duty in a crisis. The United States was already short 1,8000 credentialed mariners for its vessels before the COVID-19 pandemic hit in 2020, retired Rear...

news.usni.org

 

[AllAmerican75]

In addition to the shipyard problems, this appeared today:

MARAD Head ‘Not At All Confident’ Ready Reserve Fleet Could be Crewed in a Crisis - USNI News

The head of the Maritime Administration “was not at all confident” that all the ships in the Ready Reserve Fleet could be crewed if called to duty in a crisis. The United States was already short 1,8000 credentialed mariners for its vessels before the COVID-19 pandemic hit in 2020, retired Rear...

news.usni.org

The United States' refusal/inability to protect our shipping work force and industrial infrastructure is now coming back to haunt us. We don't even build large cargo ships in the United States anymore. Our capability to perform large scale sealift and expeditionary repair is almost completely hollowed out.

 

[number9]

The United States' refusal/inability to protect our shipping work force and industrial infrastructure is now coming back to haunt us. We don't even build large cargo ships in the United States anymore. Our capability to perform large scale sealift and expeditionary repair is almost completely hollowed out.

If you remove the first sentence it's relevant here.

 

[Uncle Fester]

The United States' refusal/inability to protect our shipping work force and industrial infrastructure is now coming back to haunt us. We don't even build large cargo ships in the United States anymore. Our capability to perform large scale sealift and expeditionary repair is almost completely hollowed out.

The strategic sealift folks specifically and merchant marine industry in general have been banging the trash can lids about this for a long time, but while I agree it's a problem, I don't see a solution that doesn't create more problems. Heavy shipbuilding moved overseas for the same reasons lot of industries have. Our merchant fleet is more or less nonexistent because the USG insists on things like safety and OSHA regulations actually being enforced on US-flagged ships. Why put up with all that when Panama or Liberia won't make you do the same?

 

[AllAmerican75]

The strategic sealift folks specifically and merchant marine industry in general have been banging the trash can lids about this for a long time, but while I agree it's a problem, I don't see a solution that doesn't create more problems. Heavy shipbuilding moved overseas for the same reasons lot of industries have. Our merchant fleet is more or less nonexistent because the USG insists on things like safety and OSHA regulations actually being enforced on US-flagged ships. Why put up with all that when Panama or Liberia won't make you do the same?

There were ways to prevent those industries from going overseas and keeping them healthy here in America but as @number9 so aptly pointed out, our political leadership in Washington over the last 50 years cared more about shareholder profits, endless GDP growth, "free" markets, and globalizing the labor pool (To suppress wages/labor costs) than they did about protecting the strategic infrastructure and industries that preserve our edge in global competition. As I pointed out before, not only has our industry and maritime capacity been hollowed out, but we also closed critical public shipyards and other bases in order to cut defense spending. We also spent 40 of the last 50 years helping to bring China into the 21st Century to the point where they now are the industrial engine of the world and can outbuild and out-develop us.

This is a perfect storm that has taken 30 years to arrive. We could have stopped it but we chose not to. Now we will reap the consequences.

 

[Griz882]

It’s not just ships, we need a major increase of funding for our port operations as well. It is kind of strange, we are strangling ourselves for very little profit and will regret when the whole thing unravels…say…in the event of war with China. The issue is, merchant shipping has to be subsidized by the government, kind of like a national security thing!

 

[wink]

We also spent 40 of the last 50 years helping to bring China into the 21st Century to the point where they now are the industrial engine of the world and can outbuild and out-develop us.

Indeed. The Chinese twist to Khrushchev's rhetorical strategy. Nikita Khrushchev said, “We will take America without firing a shot. We do not have to invade the U.S. We will destroy you from within". Whereas the Chinese have greatly weakened their enemy by having their enemy prop them up, then invest in and promote their own strength against their enemy.

 

[AllAmerican75]

Indeed. The Chinese twist to Khrushchev's rhetorical strategy. Nikita Khrushchev said, “We will take America without firing a shot. We do not have to invade the U.S. We will destroy you from within". Whereas the Chinese have greatly weakened their enemy by having their enemy prop them up, then invest in and promote their own strength against their enemy.

We never stood a chance. The Chinese view history and civilizational planning on the scale of centuries and always have. You can't adequately plan against that when your plans have a time horizon of 2-4 years maximum.

 

[wink]

We never stood a chance. The Chinese view history and civilizational planning on the scale of centuries and always have. You can't adequately plan against that when your plans have a time horizon of 2-4 years maximum.

Well, to have five year plans is down right Soviet. Can't have that.

Not disagreeing, but I am not sure how many western democracies have really effective long term (10+ years) industrial or economic plans. Liberal democracies by their nature do not allow for that sort of long term industrial and economic planning. We just are among the worse.
It isn't that the Chinese have uniquely long term view. It is rather common in Asia. But countries like Korea and Japan, with strong democracies, can not string together many more years than any other democracy.

 

[hscs]

Well, to have five year plans is down right Soviet. Can't have that.

Except we have the FYDP, with those magical out years where unicorns live.

 

[wink]

Except we have the FYDP, with those magical out years where unicorns live.

I got all through my fleet tour not hearing anything about out years, let alone the FYDP. On shore duty I learned that all our wars should be fought in the magical forests and soda pop oceans that are inspired by FYDP.

 

[Flash]

Indeed. The Chinese twist to Khrushchev's rhetorical strategy. Nikita Khrushchev said, “We will take America without firing a shot. We do not have to invade the U.S. We will destroy you from within". Whereas the Chinese have greatly weakened their enemy by having their enemy prop them up, then invest in and promote their own strength against their enemy.

To quote what someone else said on the internets:

Khrushchev is dead. The Soviet Union died more than 30 years ago.

Russia has half the population the old USSR did, its economy is about as big as Mexico’s, life expectancy is going down, alcoholism is rife, Putin is an authoritarian with a tendency for his opponents to disappear.

All that without firing a shot.

We never stood a chance. The Chinese view history and civilizational planning on the scale of centuries and always have. You can't adequately plan against that when your plans have a time horizon of 2-4 years maximum.

But it isn't just the Chinese cranking out ships, the South Koreans and Japanese are as well. As has already been pointed out we have stuff like workplace safety and labor requirements that some of those other countries don't have. I've dealt with some US ships that get serviced overseas because if they come back to the states it'll wreck the budget for them, and the work won't be as good either. We certainly do suffer from a lack of having some sort of coherent national shipbuilding strategy but it would almost certainly take more government direction and/or control (socialism!), funding and consistent attention.

 

[sevenhelmet]

We never stood a chance. The Chinese view history and civilizational planning on the scale of centuries and always have. You can't adequately plan against that when your plans have a time horizon of 2-4 years maximum.

I disagree- Our history shows we can be very effective as a nation when we choose to uphold a common sense of national identity and work hard toward a common purpose. Instead, these days it's all about individual identity politics and climate change. Our enemies' work is being done for them for the sake of 1,000 splintered groups "living their truth" and putting up ESG roadblocks, all so that the Blackrocks and Vanguards of the world can make money.

Meanwhile our enemies do what they've always done, with no such restrictions.

 

[Hotdogs]

We never stood a chance. The Chinese view history and civilizational planning on the scale of centuries and always have. You can't adequately plan against that when your plans have a time horizon of 2-4 years maximum.

The Chinese have historically spent more time fighting each other than organizing anything long term. Don’t paint these dudes as 10ft tall. I am assuming Chinese ship building is about the same quality as most of their ground equipment. Most of which has significantly poor reliability and lacks any sort of logistical tail to sustain it over time. We’re talking about a country that couldn’t organically produce ball point pens until 2017.

Recent events in various conflicts show the ability to C2 an operational plan is exceedingly difficult. We’re probably only average at it at best. I have suspicions that the PLA/PLAN can successfully execute mission command at the pace in which western militaries have been accustomed to since the Prussian Army developed the concept centuries ago. You can have all the nice toys you want, but the ability to use them effectively is another ballgame.