Saluting

[FlyingBeagle]

Skidkid,
That makes sense about how the Officers are seperated more than the other services. It always seemed that the same was true with our NCOs, with their different uniforms and all.
Also, when I was on a sub, the enlisted told me there was a much greater amount of respect between enlisted ranks for the SWOs than the sub guys. They said it had to do with the close living, the speed of their promotions, and education levels.
I know pilots are laid back about rank because they take pride in being the most laid back in the military, but I just wondered if anyone else had ever thought about these things.
By the way, never seen band of brothers, but from my limited experience I'd say hot shots is the closest Hollywood representation of the Navy

 

[FlyingBeagle]

Turnandburn,
Good points also. Thanks

 

[skidkid]

By the way, never seen band of brothers, but from my limited experience I'd say hot shots is the closest Hollywood representation of the Navy

Are you just trying to start stupid sh!t? Consider this a warning.

 

[Fly Navy]

I know pilots are laid back about rank because they take pride in being the most laid back in the military, but I just wondered if anyone else had ever thought about these things.

Um, no. It has to do that we have a completely different lifestyle and threat-level than other parts of the Navy. It's just different. Aviation is not driving ships or subs or fighting on the ground.

By the way, never seen band of brothers, but from my limited experience I'd say hot shots is the closest Hollywood representation of the Navy

 

[jamnww]

I know pilots are laid back about rank because they take pride in being the most laid back in the military, but I just wondered if anyone else had ever thought about these things.
By the way, never seen band of brothers, but from my limited experience I'd say hot shots is the closest Hollywood representation of the Navy

I think the pilot thing has more to do with being able to tell someone that they are wrong (for safety reasons and operational success) and not that they just take pride in being laid back...I could be wrong of course...

I certainly hope that hot shots doesn't represent the navy you came from...

 

[FlyingBeagle]

easy guys, just a joke. didn't realize how much everyone hated that movie. I'll run along now

 

[zab1001]

Does that mean an O-3 doesn't salute an O-4? I'll leave it to the operational guys to comment, but there's an important difference in the analogy, and that's that a LCDR probably has a ground job as a Dept Head, so he has officers actively working for him...

In the real world JOs salute O-4s. The End.

 

[Gatordev]

Ahhhhhhh!

This is getting ridiculous. You guys are making this WAY more complicated than it has to be. To reiterate what Zab is saying, it's about JOPA, not about "respect." FlyingBeagle, you're confusing respect with courtesy and protocol. The SWO guys didn't/don't have more respect than the sub guys, they're just steeped in courtesy more. Some of that courtesy goes away when you work closely with others, and a bond is formed. Additionally, the SWO community doesn't usually subscribe to the JOPA school of thought. Successful ships are able to do this in certain cases, but the way the surface community as a whole does business is just generally different than the sub or aviation (or Specwar/SpecOps, for that matter) communities. As a result, the other communities tend to be more laid back on protocols than others, but that doesn't mean there isn't respect.

@TurnandBurn, I understand your points, but the whole saluting an O-4 because he has a ground job is bunk. As Zab is saying, you just do it, for the same reason that you put your ribbons on the left and name tag on the right. It's just the way it is. Hell, at one point, next to the CO, XO, and MO, I had the most bodies working directly for me in the squadron (yeah, evals sucked). Did I expect the Jaygees to salute me? Hell no.

Damn, now I've made this more complicated than what it needs to be.

 

[IRfly]

This thread has gone too long without a threadjack...So about JOPA. From what/whom are JOs protecting themselves? It just seems to me that senior officers would have better things to do than jack with a dumb Ensign (unless he/she needed constructive criticism, of course).

 

[zab1001]

JOPA is a nebulous, shadowy organization striving to help JOs avoid the man, duck busy work, fly as much as possible, tear it up off hours, maintain an even strain, look the other way, CYA, and generally support the rights of your average O-1 through O-3.

Seriously, JOPA is just a term used when discussing the general effort by JOs in a squadron to keep a positive 'command climate'. This ranges from lobbying the front office (CO/XO) to allow fliers to wear flightsuits even when not on the schedule to not flying on the weekend to promoting good deal trips (air shows, dets, etc). I've never seen senior officers specifically f-ing with one JO for the purposes of games, but I have seen O-4s with silver oak leaves in their eyes try to push some ridiculous concept on the squadron in the name of a Navy Comm and hopefully selection for command (working Saturdays, mandating daily quarters at the beginning and end of the workday for 'accountability', assigning senior JOs to babysit tactical sims for "QA" when it's really just a way for them to say 'everyone is hard scheduled').

A good concept all Wardrooms need to establish (provided the CO agrees) is the "Silverback" program. Taken from the term used to describe the older gorillas in the wild, senior JOs, usually ones who already have their follow on orders (therefore technically 'out of the line of fire') have carte blanche to approach the Skipper in an appropriate environment with concerns about the state of the Wardroom. Morale low for some easily fixable reason? Senior LT takes it upon himself to set up 5 minutes with the Skipper to bring it up. Those guys are busy as hell and sometimes they might not know the whole story or may be getting smoke blown up their as$ by the O-4s.

Clarification: This is another 'unofficial' kind of thing. 'Silverback' is just one of the names I've heard used for the concept.

The JOPA concept boils down to:
Don't fvck over fellow JOs and support each other.

 

[ea6bflyr]

My POSITIVE feedback from P-Cola:
My friend and I headed (in Civvies) to the NFCU on Navy and as we were waiting to use the ATM we started a conversation with two young Marines in uniform(PFC and LCPL). We asked what they were doing in P-Cola and they stated that they were attending A-school. They asked us what we were doing (mind you we were in Civvies) and we told them we were Student NFO's in Flight School. After these young Marines finished using the ATM, they popped tall and saluted us. I was thouroughly impressed by their professionalism.

As a side note: 10th General Order: To salute all officers and all colors and standards not cased.

ea6bflyr

 

[Steve Wilkins]

In the SWO world, O-3 DH's are not JO's....but O-3 divo's are. Don't try to figure it out, just go with it.

 

[handjive]

As a side note: 10th General Order: To salute all officers and all colors and standards not cased.

In civvies you are considered an un-cased officer

MCO 1020.34

 

[Gatordev]

Ahh, and there in lies the problem. Those O-3s still are JOs. They just often get drunk w/ power....or just propegate the myth that they aren't JOs. That's why I love it when going into a wardroom and the aviator Jaygees call the Dept Head SWOs by their first name. It either ends up in them sucking it up, or trying to pull rank when I'm sitting there as a fellow LT. Game, set, match.

 

[Fly Navy]

In civvies you are considered an un-cased officer

MCO 1020.34

Anyone you know to be a ranking officer in civies, you must salute. That's a basic rule. You know that. :icon_tong