Scariest Day/Night Flying

[webmaster]

As for almost hitting P-3s...well, if P-3s would just not be the slowest thing in the world that's flying and get out of everyone else's way, the world would just be a better place.

I am going to fly slower, just for you! Just think, we have all the Maine Squadrons here now also, so more P-3s for everyone!

Ryan1234, the jax beach line, up and down the St. Johns and westerly traffic out of St. Augustine are the areas I typically scan for light civil VFR traffic. And we can overtake them all too quickly. We don't have any posters, but getting to and from the warning areas, we typically return SNOOC MADEN at 4000. Departure from KNIP, is a southerly turnout, then east across the beachline at 4000 (north of St. Augustine). Both are under departure or approach.

 

[scoolbubba]

As for almost hitting P-3s...well, if P-3s would just not be the slowest thing in the world that's flying and get out of everyone else's way, the world would just be a better place.

So you admit it: Helos don't really fly, they are just constantly rejected from the earth for ugliness.

 

[Flugelman]

As for almost hitting P-3s...well, if P-3s would just not be the slowest thing in the world that's flying and get out of everyone else's way, the world would just be a better place.

You don't need to be quick when you're elegant...

 

[Gatordev]

So you admit it: Helos don't really fly, they are just constantly rejected from the earth for ugliness.

I never denied that. While I was often wondering exactly how wide a pattern that P-3 ahead of us was going to make while in Hawaii, many of my "issues" w/ P-3s in Jax haven't been in a helo.

You don't need to be quick when you're elegant...

Hmm, so pooping out what appears to be the black death while talking non-stop on the radio is elegance? Noted.

Smiles, for those that can't tell.

I am going to fly slower, just for you! Just think, we have all the Maine Squadrons here now also, so more P-3s for everyone!

Sadly, you're no longer a concern anymore.

 

[ryan1234]

It's not just the civilians that have issues. Over the past few weeks, I've noticed a rash of HS guys on the river south of NIP not up CSAR common, which is odd because they used to be up all the time. The CG guys have said they'd be up it as well, but have apparently stopped. It's becoming an obstacle course going north up the river approaching Julington Creek at night, and even worse when doing a NFAM sans goggles.

As for almost hitting P-3s...well, if P-3s would just not be the slowest thing in the world that's flying and get out of everyone else's way, the world would just be a better place.

In the seaplane we used to step taxi the river South of Reynolds... but I've seen more and more -60s (CBP?) pretty low following the river south towards 28J... so we've stayed away more recently.

webmaster:
I'll put out the word around here, most instructors seem to point students to follow V3 up North....even down as far as DAB, ERAU suggests taking V3 South or North for solo VFR XCs. When I was younger, I actually watched a midair happen between a Cherokee and a Seminole right off the coast by the Flagler pier (where V3 runs by)... it's certainly a real danger, especially considering the growing number of LSA, and concentrated student pilots around the area.

I'm familiar with SNOOC, but I'm not sure about MADEN?

 

[webmaster]

MADEN is the IAF for KNIP TACAN RWY 28, or (earmuffs to all the P3 CAT1 FRS studs!) visual checkpoint Black Creek Bridge between Fleming Island and Green Cove Springs.

There are way too many VFR bug smashers out there, and why I usually avoid conducting training over the St. John's River. But, you will occassionally see a P3 flying North/South legs, between 6-10k over the river, between KNIP and the power plant. Too much of a traffic cooridor for my tastes, and can distract from training that I am trying to accomplish. Especially when you are constantly getting unidentified traffic calls w/o altitude from approach.

I have used St. Augustine, Gainesville and Lake City as local bounce fields, but they each have their limitations and time constraints getting into and out of each of them. It also gets squirrely when you get put on opposite patterns and meet beak to beak. Had a piper with a foreign solo student turn into me while I was low turning final. Needless to say, I cleaned up, got lower and sped out of the area and departed the pattern.

Bottom line, majority of the P3s are flying training hops also, and don't take for granted that we can see you. We do not have TCAS, and only our Mk1Mod1 eyeball to break out the traffic.

 

[Gatordev]

In the seaplane we used to step taxi the river South of Reynolds... but I've seen more and more -60s (CBP?) pretty low following the river south towards 28J... so we've stayed away more recently.

They probably aren't CBP, just the various Navy squadrons making their way to/from the low level routes, R-2906, and GNV. There's really no altitude SOP for the HSL side, not sure about the HS or CG guys. I generally will come down to 200' just 'cause and hug the respective side of the river.

I'm familiar with SNOOC, but I'm not sure about MADEN?

MADEN is the IAP for the TACAN approaches into NIP. I think it's 13 NM to the south of NIP (191 radial to be precise).

EDIT: webmaster beat me to it.

 

[exhelodrvr]

So you admit it: Helos don't really fly, they are just constantly rejected from the earth for ugliness.

Of course, NAVAIR counters the ugliness of the platform by picking the best-looking aviators to crew them.

 

[Pags]

To get this thread back on track....three nights....(they're always at night...)

NIGHT 1: We were underway for two weeks and were doing DLQs behind a USNS because we could. I was a brand new HAC with maybe 20hrs of AC time. After an interesting set of bounces that included the 2P turning SAS off on final and taking his hands off the controls at about 100', I then hotseated the 2Ps. With CP #2, we started bouncing. #2 almost put us in the nets on the first bounce. On about the 3rd or 4th landing we started having trouble picking up our closure close in. After two rough approaches followed by two SCARY CLOSE wave offs, I decided to take a pass and give the new guy a breather. I rolled onto final and started getting vertigo right off the bat. The ship's lights were playing off the water in such a way that it made me feel like I low and fast. I kept pulling the nose back and then cross checking the gauges and realizing I was high and slow. I'd correct, and then look outside and do it all over again. I went to all instruments and told the CP to call out airpseed and altitude. It was the first time I had ever had vertigo and I was pretty sure my CP had it too. That approach felt like it took every ounce of concentration I had. Once on deck, I called for chocks and chains and said we'd had enough. My crewchief said "if you weren't going to call it, I was!" That night taught me a lot about spatial D, CRM, and knowing when enough is enough.

NIGHT 2: It was a standard CAG fish bowl night with no real visible horizon. We had just finished up a two ship day into night gunex off of Bahrain. I called for the re-join to bring us home. During the join up I made a right hand turn for Bahrain. After rolling out of the turn, I asked the aircrew where -2 was. As they said "standby" I looked to my 3 just in time to see a dark shape close by. I followed -2 as they completed their overrun right over my greenhouse with a few feet of seperation. After a second, I called them and asked if they were OK. They responded with "we're gonna take it home as a single." Turns out the CP of -2 was having trouble picking up closure so was trying to use the A/A TACAN DME. The CP had become fixated on the DME. By the time the CP looked up, -2 was in close so the CP tried to turn inside of use, but it wasn't going to happen. At that point -2's HAC pulled to the stops and cleared us by a few feet. Of course, my crew didn't know this until the debrief. We flew home wondering what the hell had just happened. It wasn't until after we sat down and heard -2's story that we got scared. Learned a lot about while you don't have to call your turns as lead and it's wings job to maintain seperation, it sure doesn't hurt to make that 2sec radio call that we even have a standard form for. I also learned that you need to brief it to death. Nothing, not even the joinup, is too small to brief in detail.

NIGHT 3: We were out doing a simulated HVBSS to Ches Light which is a light tower 30mi east of Norfolk. A storm had just passed and we were flying east, looking into the darkness that was the back of the storm. During the insert, -2 (whose HAC was my one of close friends) had ended up 180 deg out of his briefed position. So they went to do a pedal turn to flip the bird around. From the other bird I watched them start to turn, wobble, descend, and then start to slide. During the descent they keyed the mike and we heard one click from them. My thoughts went from "I guess they're turning to get positioned per the brief" to "are they going to land on the tower? we didn't brief that" to "are they going to land because of an EP?" to "what the hell are they doing" as they slid and continued to turn in between my a/c and the tower. As we pulled back to get out of their way, I continued to think "shit, they're going to hit the tower" and "fuck, they're going to put it in the water" I was getting ready to key the mic and transmit the mayday to giantkiller and order my AWs to dress out when they recovered. Turns out during the pedal turn they had lost sight of the tower and had no visual cues.

 

[60flyer]

NIGHT 2: It was a standard CAG fish bowl night with no real visible horizon. We had just finished up a two ship day into night gunex off of Bahrain. I called for the re-join to bring us home. During the join up I made a right hand turn for Bahrain. After rolling out of the turn, I asked the aircrew where -2 was. As they said "standby" I looked to my 3 just in time to see a dark shape close by. I followed -2 as they completed their overrun right over my greenhouse with a few feet of seperation. After a second, I called them and asked if they were OK. They responded with "we're gonna take it home as a single." Turns out the CP of -2 was having trouble picking up closure so was trying to use the A/A TACAN DME. The CP had become fixated on the DME. By the time the CP looked up, -2 was in close so the CP tried to turn inside of use, but it wasn't going to happen. At that point -2's HAC pulled to the stops and cleared us by a few feet. Of course, my crew didn't know this until the debrief. We flew home wondering what the hell had just happened. It wasn't until after we sat down and heard -2's story that we got scared. Learned a lot about while you don't have to call your turns as lead and it's wings job to maintain seperation, it sure doesn't hurt to make that 2sec radio call that we even have a standard form for. I also learned that you need to brief it to death. Nothing, not even the joinup, is too small to brief in detail.

That shit scares me. It happened once that I asked "where is -2" and got a "uhhh....hold on". From then on...I said in my briefs 3,4,5 times..."if I ask you where -2 is...I want zero hestitation. It's your job to ALWAYS know where that aircraft is. I don't care how many times we have to call terminate - if you don't see that aircraft you BETTER speak up". *chills*

 

[RobLyman]

It's not just the civilians that have issues. Over the past few weeks, I've noticed a rash of HS guys on the river south of NIP not up CSAR common, which is odd because they used to be up all the time. The CG guys have said they'd be up it as well, but have apparently stopped. It's becoming an obstacle course going north up the river approaching Julington Creek at night, and even worse when doing a NFAM sans goggles.

As for almost hitting P-3s...well, if P-3s would just not be the slowest thing in the world that's flying and get out of everyone else's way, the world would just be a better place.

What is the CSAR freq? The Army National Guard has a bunch of helos ( Blackhawks, Chinooks, Lakotas and Kiowas) flying out of Cecil Field and I know they don't know about the CSAR common freq. Did you know there is also a discrete frequency JSO, Life Flight and Trauma One all use in downtown Jax?

 

[Gatordev]

I don't know the CSAR freq off the top of my head. I'll try and look tomorrow. I've heard you guys on the CTAF freq. One problem we have in our birds is we only have one VHF radio, so we can't always be up it. That VHF CTAF is actually a national helo common freq, so it works elsewhere, also, at least according to our resident Life Flight pilot.

 

[Kaman]

otice

Well, I was halfway into the 3rd hop of the past 36 hours during cyclic ops. Dressed out in my wet-suit as swimmer for "plane guard", and what I had for mid-rats felt like it all dropped into my colon in liquid form...Fortunately, I knew the way from SPOT 4 to the catwalk...thru the hatch into the head where I thought heaven was in the form of a warm toilet seat! Word to the wise...STAY AWAY from the chili dogs and go with PP&J...typically safer...More fun stories to follow...

Regards,

ex-Navy Rotorhead

 

[HAL Pilot]

^ Can't have more until you have the first......just saying.....

 

[jt71582]

I don't know the CSAR freq off the top of my head. I'll try and look tomorrow. I've heard you guys on the CTAF freq. One problem we have in our birds is we only have one VHF radio, so we can't always be up it. That VHF CTAF is actually a national helo common freq, so it works elsewhere, also, at least according to our resident Life Flight pilot.

Isn't it UHF 243.0 and VHF 121.5?