SEALs on Trial?

[Brett327]

One thing we know for sure: if the situation were reversed, the video of the beheading of the Seal(s) would have been shown on TV & throughout the world. So, IMHO, if the Seals didn't kill the fuc#er while in captivity, then we're well ahead of them on the scale of legal forbearance.

I don't see how that's germane to this situation. I don't think we're debating or comparing the relative merits of our legal system to "theirs." These guys don't just have free reign to go out and do whatever they want and I suspect that a live terrorist who can subsequently be interrogated is almost always preferrable to a dead one. All you "kill 'em all" crowd don't really understand what the mission is here. Forest for the trees, people.

Brett

 

[kito]

One thing we know for sure: if the situation were reversed, the video of the beheading of the Seal(s) would have been shown on TV & throughout the world. So, IMHO, if the Seals didn't kill the fuc#er while in captivity, then we're well ahead of them on the scale of legal forbearance.

Well ahead? Sure. But it doesn't take much to be well ahead of those fsckers when it comes to legal forbearance, does it? That's like saying you're cleaner than the guy who just finished taking a swim in the head.

Does anyone else here think it's likely that they're going through all this hoopla to ensure that there's an airtight case against the detainee, so that there's no chance he gets off for whining about a bruised lip? That would explain the SEALs electing for a court martial, and it seems if that's the case, then it's in everyone's interest except the detainee's to go through with it, clear the SEALs names, and get back to making sure this clown stays locked up. But I don't know if things tend to work like that. Could it be so?

 

[Fog]

Well ahead? Sure. But it doesn't take much to be well ahead of those fsckers when it comes to legal forbearance, does it?

This is war, not moot court. Ask the Marines how they won the ground war in the Pacific - it wasn't like maneuvers at Camp Pendleton.

 

[kito]

Ask the Marines how they won the ground war in the Pacific

The japanese by and large were nice enough to save us from having to deal with POW issues by taking bayonets up the gut. But either way, I think the issue gets a lot less messy when you're in a properly defined war with an enemy that'll stop fighting as soon as their state has collapsed. Then you just hold them until you manage to knock over the government. No problems, no complaints. But these guys we're fighting now are a real mess.

I guess you're right that military justice is it's own thing with its own rules. Somehow the line between the two is getting real blurry though. That's exactly the enemy's intention. Now we've got to find the right way to deal with it. I'm not saying I know what that way is, just that it needs to be found.

 

[Scoob]

Now we've got to find the right way to deal with it.

Deny them their greatest weapon: media coverage.

 

[USMCFLYR]

Well ahead? Sure. But it doesn't take much to be well ahead of those fsckers when it comes to legal forbearance, does it? That's like saying you're cleaner than the guy who just finished taking a swim in the head.

Does anyone else here think it's likely that they're going through all this hoopla to ensure that there's an airtight case against the detainee, so that there's no chance he gets off for whining about a bruised lip? That would explain the SEALs electing for a court martial, and it seems if that's the case, then it's in everyone's interest except the detainee's to go through with it, clear the SEALs names, and get back to making sure this clown stays locked up. But I don't know if things tend to work like that. Could it be so?

This may all be true except please remember that the SEALs didn't chose a CM over NJP. The SEALs chose not to accept NJP and then the convening authority chose to take the case to CM. Semantics - but an important difference in how the system works.

USMCFLYR

 

[Flash]

We have no way of knowing that. These are all assumptions people have made. There are lots of good reasons to go the court matial route over NJP. Lack of solid prosecutorial evidence, wanting to prove a point to their CoC, or even to bring publicity into the equation are all possible reasons. As with all things, time will tell, but all of the speculation and chest thumping in this thread is a bit silly, IMO.

Brett

Again, I find it odd that a group of people who honor the integrity of a mishap investigation so correctly will ignore the same principles when it comes to other types of investigations, like legal ones. None of us here know what happened and we won't until the court martial happened. It could be nothing, maybe some guys trying to cover their ass up the chain. But it could be worse. Who the fuck knows? We sure as hell don't. And to rely on the word of a single news report and a defense attorney is absurd. So get off your high horses and come back to reality.

 

[USMCFLYR]

Impartiality and non-speculative discussion belongs around the table during a mishap investigation and those who are participating in such activities should refrain from such behavior to the maximum extent possible; but what do people expect out of an Internet DISCUSSION board?
If you are involved with the legal team representing either the government or the defense in this matter with the SEALs then you should not be on here; otherwise - learn what you can from the situation - or what the scenario might be - and apply it to your everyday situations; especially if you find yourself in some similar situation. Just realize that not all the facts are known - and might never be known - but that doesn't mean that there should never be discussion among professionals.

USMCFLYR

 

[Brett327]

This may all be true except please remember that the SEALs didn't chose a CM over NJP. The SEALs chose not to accept NJP and then the convening authority chose to take the case to CM. Symantics - but an important difference in how the system works.

USMCFLYR

I don't see any functional difference. For all intents and purposes, the SEALs chose to take it to the next level by refusing NJP. The idea that the convening authority "could" have declined is irrelevant and hardly an "important difference." Perhaps you have a different way of looking at it though - do explain.

Brett

 

[USMCFLYR]

I don't see any functional difference. For all intents and purposes, the SEALs chose to take it to the next level by refusing NJP. The idea that the convening authority "could" have declined is irrelevant and hardly an "important difference." Perhaps you have a different way of looking at it though - do explain.

Brett

I guess I do. The devil is in the details.

The fact is that the accused don't "choose" a CM. By refusing NJP the SEALs very likely were hoping that the issue would be dropped. As I said - it is symantics - but if the forum members really want to understand how the process works, then I am correcting the misspeak that has been posted on the thread.

I'm sure that if someone explained Navy OCS or Marine PLC in a totally inaccurate manner but ended with the fact that the person would eventually be commissioned - I would have the same problem with the information being presented being inaccurate for those that care.

USMCFLYR

 

[Herc_Dude]

I don't see any functional difference. For all intents and purposes, the SEALs chose to take it to the next level by refusing NJP. The idea that the convening authority "could" have declined is irrelevant and hardly an "important difference." Perhaps you have a different way of looking at it though - do explain.

Brett

I'm agreeing with Brett on this one. The convening authority has to be prepared (and most are) to take every case to a court martial. While I agree there are times when a command is praying it stays at NJP and the individual just takes it, the majority of NJP cases have sufficient evidence to get it done at a special or general court martial. If you refuse NJP you can expect a CM, and a defense attorney is going to know that and tell you the same. The commands other options might include a CRB or 6105 counseling, but neither are at the level of NJP or higher. The command shows their ass if they just drop it.

 

[picklesuit]

These people are not CIA operatives. They are SEALs. They wear uniforms with their names on them along with their warfare devices just like the rest of us. Their identity and job specification in not a fucking national secret. If you want to meet one, just go to The Jewish Mother in Va Beach or Mc P's out in San Dog. They are the guys with muscles wearing cargo pants, t-shirts, and flip flops.

Get a grip folks.

Was there (McP's) last week...good Reuben sandwich...lots of cougars...couple of SEALs...we were the skinny, pale guys....



Oh...and the word is "Semantics"...not "Symantics"....sorry, the grammar Nazi in me came out...

 

[exhelodrvr]

the majority of NJP cases have sufficient evidence to get it done at a special or general court martial.

Anybody know what the statistics are on convictions for individuals who declined NJP and subsequently went to a court martial?

 

[xj220]

Was there (McP's) last week...good Reuben sandwich...lots of cougars...couple of SEALs...we were the skinny, pale guys....



Oh...and the word is "Semantics"...not "Symantics"....sorry, the grammar Nazi in me came out...

I love McP's. Every time I'm in San Diego I make sure to hit it up, and yes their Reuben is very good.

 

[Brett327]

Anybody know what the statistics are on convictions for individuals who declined NJP and subsequently went to a court martial?

I doubt anyone tracks that, but in my time as a Legal O, I saw three cases go that route and all three were convicted. These guys were all going to be separated either way, but they all bought themselves an OTH rather than the general they would have gotten post mast during ADSEP processing.

Brett