SECNAV to Implement Sweeping Changes

[hscs]

Agree with Ike - think it is still a hangover from HC integration. We have some that are still stuck in HC. I think this is to be expected since it is very hard to change mentality if you have seen a specific path work well for decades. Without a band aid ripping change to the plan that is integrated into precepts / SECNAV community briefs, the senior folks (especially if they have done a pull in PERS) won't accept the risk of sending the hot runners on a different path.

For the FW types, you all can push us RW guys if you want by your communities voting in boards a certain way. We will be forced to change. This is already happening with selection rates for WTIs / Training Os. Years ago, a super JO tour was a death knell.

HSC needs to resolve its paradox. On one side you have HS tactics pushing types clashing with the HC "why are we doing this". Cross pollination has happened but hasn't resolved expanding tactical missions to the EXP side or proving that CVW HSC usage in SOF / CSAR will occur more than once in a blue moon. Unless you fix this, I think the issues will remain.

Lastly, ANAV is in a separate bin from other boat jobs. Very fierce competition for the job and people with 2x #1 EPs don't get the job.

- @Brett327 - how do you all prevent the chasm from developing between CVW & EXP?

 

[Recovering LSO]

If all was right with the world then some of you jet guys would carrying the load on these boat jobs.

Things that make you go hmmmm.

 

[squorch2]

EXP still carries that HC mentality.

 

[squorch2]

Jinxes abound.

 

[Flash]

...If all was right with the world then some of you jet guys would carrying the load on these boat jobs. I mean, you are the ones that are predominantly making CO, XO of the carriers. But for whatever reason or drug deal that exists, I don't see many jet guys getting told "this shooter/LHD mini boss/ANAV gig will really lock you in for operational skipper".

Well, for one thing, most of us already have a ton of CVN experience. FWIW, I know plenty of TACAIR guys who have done ANAV tours (and screened for DH and command).

Having seen both sides of the fence, to a degree, there is an enormous value in getting exposed to how the fleet works at sea. Are shooter and arresting gear officer the way to do it? That is debatable, but having dealt with quite a few folks in my career who have not seen the boat it becomes pretty obvious that they lack in some critical knowledges about how the air wing, battle groups and the fleet operate at sea. When in a joint environment it becomes even more important that Naval Aviators have that experience because everyone is going to see wings on your chest and assume you are the resident expert on all things Navy, even if you protest otherwise. If you are a post-command VP/HSC type with little to no experience in fleet ops that is going to be a big disadvantage in the billets you will likely hold afterwards.

I am in the same boat as many of the same folks who have never been on a boat tour, my VAQ tour was with a land-based squadron and I spent a grand total of 5 days at sea. Fortunately I was able to learn a little bit by osmosis from the more experienced folks in the squadron and in my current unit but I have a huge gap in my professional knowledge that impacts in my current Navy job, working in an AOC with the CSG's. The learning curve for VP and most helo folks, and COD guys too, in my current unit is very steep compared to the folks who were part of the air wing.

 

[robav8r]

If you are a post-command VP type with little to no experience in fleet ops . . .

I can't think of any post-command VP types that do not have extensive, fleet/disassociated CVN experience on thei resume.

 

[Flash]

I can't think of any post-command VP types that do not have extensive, fleet/disassociated CVN experience on thei resume.

Because they usually did at least a disassociated boat tour, so fortunately they can speak smartly to how the boat operates. I was mainly positing a theoretical disadvantage if one had not been to the boat but I have known a few that have slipped through the cracks, mainly VQ types but a few VP types too, but that was a few years ago.

 

[Gatordev]

Look at said Golden Path. Look at what happens to guys who care more about flying than doing shitty boat jobs. They get booted. Look at what happens when you tell your front office that all you want to do is fly. There's something to what Masterbates said about telling your front office that you want to be the next CNO until your last fitrep is signed.

Keep in mind that you're looking at this from a vary narrow time frame. Yes, the last 3 years or so have been bloody and people have been getting booted, but that hasn't been a norm. It's been very common for a non-FRS flyer to move on to O-4 and DH jobs. I understand it may not be comforting to those having to deal with this now, but the Navy will swing back to being less bloody in time. Like everything, it's cyclical.

Work hard, do what's right for the squadron and for your people, and follow your own path. If that path happens to be Golden, great, but if not, see where it takes you. If you truly are doing good work and the front office doesn't recognize it for whatever reason (political, weirdo, etc), there's nothing you can do to change them, so again, just go back to the beginning of this paragraph.

And I'd put very little stock in "what Masterbates said." His saga is anything but a normal career path. While he got a few turds thrown his way by life, a lot of his drama was self-induced.

 

[Pags]

Gripes? Really? So a guy can't critically think about the way we do business without it being called 'bitching'. WTI is a weird situation. They somehow have managed to create a situation for themselves where they are on the golden path to DH, XO, and CO without ever actually having to lead sailors. Going to a 3 month course on tactics and getting a patch does not a phenomenal leader make. Thats a whole other discussion though.

So you don't like the boat and WTI is weird?

What would you recommend the community use in lieu of these options to fulfill its requirements?

 

[jtmedli]

Keep in mind that you're looking at this from a vary narrow time frame. Yes, the last 3 years or so have been bloody and people have been getting booted, but that hasn't been a norm. It's been very common for a non-FRS flyer to move on to O-4 and DH jobs. I understand it may not be comforting to those having to deal with this now, but the Navy will swing back to being less bloody in time. Like everything, it's cyclical.

Work hard, do what's right for the squadron and for your people, and follow your own path. If that path happens to be Golden, great, but if not, see where it takes you. If you truly are doing good work and the front office doesn't recognize it for whatever reason (political, weirdo, etc), there's nothing you can do to change them, so again, just go back to the beginning of this paragraph.

And I'd put very little stock in "what Masterbates said." His saga is anything but a normal career path. While he got a few turds thrown his way by life, a lot of his drama was self-induced.

Sage advice and I agree with all of the above. I do agree with what Masterbates said though. Going into the front office and telling them you just want VTs or whatever around here (i.e. not rag or wit) will get you put at the back of the pack. That's not how it should work but that's how it is.

So you don't like the boat and WTI is weird?

What would you recommend the community use in lieu of these options to fulfill its requirements?

The answer to that question is a bit long. I think the bigger problem here is that we've abandoned the concept of grading someone based on their leadership ability in favor of this "golden path" mindset. DIVO jobs in most squadrons are neutered positions at best with little to no authority to actually change or do anything for the better and numerous LTs leave squadrons with EP Fitreps having never been in charge of a single enlisted person or having ever seen an EVAL. Under this "golden path" mindset said person can make it O4 and department head without ever being in charge of a single person which is where I think WTIs end up in a weird position on a regular basis. Being the MO shouldn't be the first time you ever actually have to look at an EVAL.

Like I said before, I don't understand why it's the sole burden of the helo community and P3 community to fulfill the boat jobs. Is there some reason that a jet guy can't go be the safety officer on an LHD (or insert job here)? It'd probably do him some good to see what something other than a carrier looks like. As a carrier guy myself, I get just as much exposure to the CVN (not to mention 4 or 5 other kinds of boats) as a jet LT so why is it my job to "expand my officership and be more well-rounded by going back to the boat"?

Or better yet. Why can't that #2MP LT coming out of their 1st JO tour be the guy who fulfills that shooter billet or whatever? Is there some reason why he gets to go to Academy/ROTC and bang college chicks and drink beer until he's FOSx2? Shouldn't we be sending those EP guys to be ROTC instructors and to teach the next generation of Naval Officers how to succeed rather than sending the #2MP or whatever?

I understand there are requirements to be met but the overall theme of what I'm saying here is that the way go about it boggles the mind at times. LTs who go to non-flying billets are getting incredibly good deals like ROTC (free masters), getting to see how an acquisitions program for NAVAIR is managed and fly all over the country meeting program managers/engineers, etc... So why do the guys who actually want to stay in and do good things get rewarded by being sold a bill of goods about how being the V2 Div-O and learning how the arresting gear works makes them a better officer? Sorry but I just don't buy that aspect of how we manage our personnel. Why punish the guy who wants to be an O4 one day with boat jobs he doesn't really want to do and is only taking because it's what he thinks he's got to do to be competitive?

I'm not saying that I have all of the answers and I certainly don't think I know it all as a LT but I do think that a tiny bit of critical thinking certainly reveals a gaping hole in the system we've got. Guys that didn't do well get hooked up with shore duties end them up with free masters degrees and shore duties that actually do give them insight as to how Naval Aviation REALLY WORKS while guys who got EPs are getting stuck with jobs that are basically punishment and penance for doing well and really have no bearing on flying an aircraft whatsoever.

 

[llnick2001]

(1) DIVO jobs in most squadrons are neutered positions at best with little to no authority to actually change or do anything for the better and (2) numerous LTs leave squadrons with EP Fitreps having never been in charge of a single enlisted person or (3) having ever seen an EVAL.

I added the numbers because I suck at the quote thing.

(1) I don't think I've seen enough to say "most" with a lot of confidence, but based on what I have seen, I'm willing to concede that saying DIVO is an oft neutered position is a fair characterization. Company commanders we are not. Though possibly not very empowered, and I have certainly experienced my fair share of handcuffing, I think we can do a lot more than we sometimes think just by showing up.

(2) This, I have not seen, and it sounds bat shit crazy to me. Makes me sad/scared that you have this impression, because you must have experienced (or witnessed) something to give it to you. Just to clarify, do you mean they were never DIVOs, or they just didn't do shit as DIVOs? I find it hard to believe that "numerous LTs" were not afforded the opportunity to be DIVOs (epic front office fail, if so), but again, we're both going off of our narrow FOV, and as bitter and angry a little man as I am, I'd bet a significant chunk of change on the fact that I had average to above average (far above in a couple cases) most of the time in my squadrons, especially my first one. I'm with you on the lack of DIVO empowerment in many cases (I've had to debrief evals to my guys that had vastly different rankings on them than I or my DH expected due to a CO who took advice from questionable sources), but if someone is a DIVO, and they are impotent to the point that they aren't in charge of anyone, that's at least partially on the DIVO (and bad on the command for handing out the EP).

(3) Again, if they have never been a DIVO, I guess I can see it since I wouldn't expect the command that isn't getting JOs that experience to bother with training on how to write these things either, but this is nucking futs. If they were a DIVO and didn't see an eval, they fucked up big time (or had the most incredible timing ever), and the front office/DH was asleep at the wheel if they pulled an EP.

 

[Gatordev]

Sage advice and I agree with all of the above. I do agree with what Masterbates said though. Going into the front office and telling them you just want VTs or whatever around here (i.e. not rag or wit) will get you put at the back of the pack. That's not how it should work but that's how it is.

There's lots of things you shouldn't necessarily tell the front office right away. Like it or not, life is political. I don't like it, but that doesn't mean that I don't learn to adapt.

The answer to that question is a bit long. I think the bigger problem here is that we've abandoned the concept of grading someone based on their leadership ability in favor of this "golden path" mindset. DIVO jobs in most squadrons are neutered positions at best with little to no authority to actually change or do anything for the better and numerous LTs leave squadrons with EP Fitreps having never been in charge of a single enlisted person or having ever seen an EVAL. Under this "golden path" mindset said person can make it O4 and department head without ever being in charge of a single person which is where I think WTIs end up in a weird position on a regular basis. Being the MO shouldn't be the first time you ever actually have to look at an EVAL.

I'm sorry you feel you've experienced this. Throughout my career, I have not experienced this. Weak leaders moving forward? Sure, but "multiple" guys moving forward with no leadership exposure just wasn't a thing that was sustainable. But we, as a community, have more options to lead than you guys do (see: DET MO), so it may be a community thing.

 

[Pags]

Sage advice and I agree with all of the above. I do agree with what Masterbates said though. Going into the front office and telling them you just want VTs or whatever around here (i.e. not rag or wit) will get you put at the back of the pack. That's not how it should work but that's how it is.



The answer to that question is a bit long. I think the bigger problem here is that we've abandoned the concept of grading someone based on their leadership ability in favor of this "golden path" mindset. DIVO jobs in most squadrons are neutered positions at best with little to no authority to actually change or do anything for the better and numerous LTs leave squadrons with EP Fitreps having never been in charge of a single enlisted person or having ever seen an EVAL. Under this "golden path" mindset said person can make it O4 and department head without ever being in charge of a single person which is where I think WTIs end up in a weird position on a regular basis. Being the MO shouldn't be the first time you ever actually have to look at an EVAL.

Like I said before, I don't understand why it's the sole burden of the helo community and P3 community to fulfill the boat jobs. Is there some reason that a jet guy can't go be the safety officer on an LHD (or insert job here)? It'd probably do him some good to see what something other than a carrier looks like. As a carrier guy myself, I get just as much exposure to the CVN (not to mention 4 or 5 other kinds of boats) as a jet LT so why is it my job to "expand my officership and be more well-rounded by going back to the boat"?

Or better yet. Why can't that #2MP LT coming out of their 1st JO tour be the guy who fulfills that shooter billet or whatever? Is there some reason why he gets to go to Academy/ROTC and bang college chicks and drink beer until he's FOSx2? Shouldn't we be sending those EP guys to be ROTC instructors and to teach the next generation of Naval Officers how to succeed rather than sending the #2MP or whatever?

I understand there are requirements to be met but the overall theme of what I'm saying here is that the way go about it boggles the mind at times. LTs who go to non-flying billets are getting incredibly good deals like ROTC (free masters), getting to see how an acquisitions program for NAVAIR is managed and fly all over the country meeting program managers/engineers, etc... So why do the guys who actually want to stay in and do good things get rewarded by being sold a bill of goods about how being the V2 Div-O and learning how the arresting gear works makes them a better officer? Sorry but I just don't buy that aspect of how we manage our personnel. Why punish the guy who wants to be an O4 one day with boat jobs he doesn't really want to do and is only taking because it's what he thinks he's got to do to be competitive?

I'm not saying that I have all of the answers and I certainly don't think I know it all as a LT but I do think that a tiny bit of critical thinking certainly reveals a gaping hole in the system we've got. Guys that didn't do well get hooked up with shore duties end them up with free masters degrees and shore duties that actually do give them insight as to how Naval Aviation REALLY WORKS while guys who got EPs are getting stuck with jobs that are basically punishment and penance for doing well and really have no bearing on flying an aircraft whatsoever.

I don't know what to tell you man except that different front offices value different things and it sounds like you might have seen some front office decisions that you don't agree with. Not much you can do about that but wait 18mo or so.

Also not much you can do about the jobs that Big Navy, NAE, and HSC value. Are they the right ones? There are a million ways to skin a cat but they're the ones that the organization(s) value right now. And it is ever changing. The guys a YG ahead of me in my fleet squadron were told that going to the Weapon School was career suicide. Guys in my YG were told it was not a great idea. Yet they all screened successfully because the path had changed.

I'm also a bit confused about one thread in your response; the guys who go to "good deal*" shore tours also have to go to the boat if they have career timing left. It's not like they get to skate out of the second sea tour.

I'm not sure which job you're referencing about "getting to see how an acquisitions program for NAVAIR is managed and fly all over the country meeting program managers/engineers." If you're interested in NAVAIR then go to TPS. It gets you initial exposure to the NAVAIR world and is on the path and flying.

All this said, you do seem to think that being a DIVO is essential for leadership development. And if you go to an LHD or a CVN being a divo of a lot of sailors will be one of your primary roles. So I'm not sure why you're saying the tour is useless when you say that leadership is essential. In fact, one could argue that because of the large leadership responsibility that is involved in being an Air Department officer that having top performing leaders go there would be critical.

*i say good deal in quotes because how you measure the goodness will depend on what you want to do in the Navy. Want a free masters and to bang college chicks? Odds are that you won't go far in the USN because that's not a path that big navy values. Want to remain competitive in your community? then the FRS/WWS are "good deals" because you get to keep flying and stay on the path. All things in perspective I guess.

 

[rotorhead1871]

Now I see the skew in my perspective. I started life as an enlisted shoe (ET), which meant:
a) just about anything post-commission was a QOL, control-my-own-fate improvement, and
b) I knew (somewhat) the aviator career path, because I worked on an LHD with air boss, mini boss, safety, etc.

I can see how a dude who goes to Embry Riddle, flies while doing undergrad, then commissions via OCS might have vastly different expectations.

that is a hard concept to swallow, as I thought the same...then the boss told me you are a officer first,then a aviator.....second...it was shocking! but I got over it.

 

[rotorhead1871]

But active duty Navy guys do conduct the DT and OT on those radars to make sure Raytheon is giving the end user in the fleet a radar he or she can use.

true...it must do the job and be GI proof too, if not, the contractor hears about it ASAP.