Sen. Schumer gas for electric car trade in program?

[Spekkio]

My bill was Tier One so it was only $0.32, but in the tiered plan off-peak pricing is only a couple of cents higher.

I don't know how you stay in tier 1 (< 20-30 kwh/mo) with an EV unless you never charge it at home.... and you're still ignoring taxes/fees. The average Californian uses ~500-750kwh of energy a month depending on various sources without an EV, which is already solidly into tier 3. Now add another 300-400 kwh to keep a vehicle charged.

But what I was referring to was the special program for EVs which gives you an even lower rate if you charge in the middle of night like most people with EVs can do.

Right, and how do you think those rates are cheaper off-peak? One aspect is:

California already experiences rolling blackouts due to fires and hot days when A/C usage peaks. Currently CA is already operating at a level where power capacity and load is more or less evenly blanched on most days. If anyone believes that Solar and Wind generation can cover the demand for additional electric car charging they are either progressive or delusional or both. That leaves natural gas and nuclear, and in CA both options are considered non-starters. If power generation issues aren't resolved before electric car discussion, the outcome is more frequent and longer blackouts.

The other is subsidies to encourage people to buy them. Subsidies that will go away when the entire auto economy is EV. Same reason that we shouldn't reasonably expect EV chargers to remain 'free'

 

[Brett327]

Mileage taxes have been proposed over and over at various levels of government for a long time.

You're kinda making my point for me.

 

[jmcquate]

CA also has a $100B budget surplus, so probably nothing.

Oh, OK. That must be why CA put a moratorium on the state gas tax when gas in CA was over $7.00 a gallon.................oh wait.

 

[Griz882]

CA also has a $100B budget surplus, so probably nothing.


That someone has written a proposed piece of legislation doesn't mean that it's happening. Plenty of mayonnaise-brained gun control bills got written during the Obama admin too... yet here we are, with all our guns, right where we left them.

Come on, guys.

No, you come on Brett. Do you seriously think states are going to give up millions upon millions in tax revenue? Of course they will not. I get it, you have a fixation on Obama era slogans and they are fun to use, but there is no way this isn’t going to happen - this is about revenue and states aren’t giving that up as we already know. It might not exactly be a mileage tax, but several fees (taxes) already exist on EVs, see below.

STATE-BY-STATE FEES

Here's a rundown of the states that currently charge electric-vehicle owners added fees, according to the National Conference of State Legislatures:
California: $100 annual fee for a zero-emissions vehicle. Starting in January 2021, annual increases will be indexed to the consumer price index.
Colorado: $50 annual fee for full-electric and plug-in hybrid (PHEV) vehicles.
Georgia: $200 annual license fee for “noncommercial alternative fueled vehicles,” including EVs, but not PHEVs (unless the owner requests an alt-fuel license plate). The fee is automatically adjusted on an annual basis.
Idaho: $140 annual fee for EVs; it’s $75 for PHEVs.
Illinois: $100 annual fee for EVs beginning July 1, 2019.
Indiana: $150 annual fee for EVs; it’s $50 for hybrids and PHEVs.
Michigan: $135 annual fee for non-hybrid electric vehicles weighing less than 8,000 pounds; it’s $235 for those weighing more than 8,000 pounds. The state charges hybrid owners an extra $47.50 and PHEV drivers an added $117.50. These fees are indexed to the state gas tax and would rise incrementally if it is increased.
Minnesota: $75 annual fee on EVs.
Mississippi: $150 fee on EVs and a $75 fee on hybrids. Beginning July 1, 2021, these fees will be indexed to the inflation rate.
Missouri: $75 annual fee on EVs, and $37.50 on PHEVs.
Nebraska: $75 annual fee on alternative-fuel vehicles, including EVs.
North Carolina: $130 on plug-in vehicles, including EVs.
Oregon: $110 annual fee on PHEVs beginning on January 1, 2020.
South Carolina: $120 biennial fee for EVs; it’s a $60 biennial fee for hybrids.
Tennessee: $100 annual fee for EVs.
Utah: $60 annual fee for EVs; it increases to $90 in 2020 and $120 in 2021. Hybrids are assessed a $10 fee that rises to $15 in 2020 and $20 in 2021. It’s currently a $26 annual fee for PHEVs that jumps to $39 in 2020 and $52 in 2021. In 2022 increases will be indexed to the consumer price index.
Virginia: $64 annual license for EVs.
Washington: $150 annual fee for EVs.
Wisconsin: $100 annual fee for EVs.

 

[wink]

You're kinda making my point for me.

Not really. I took your point as it being as difficult as a gun grab. So not likely to happen, ever. That is where we disagree. It will happen and the only reason it hasn't is that a feasible way to assign and collect the tax was not available, and there was no loss of revenue by EVs to justify it. Before EV loss of gas tax revenue it was just another way to grab EVEN more tax money. Soon, it will be argued it is to retain level funding. People will buy that.

 

[Brett327]

TL;DR - we’re irrationally paranoid. Call me when one of those bills passes. Until then, this is just typical hand-wringing.

 

[Griz882]

TL;DR - we’re irrationally paranoid. Call me when one of those bills passes. Until then, this is just typical hand-wringing.

Never thought of you as the willfully ignorant type. Until you are willing to think beyond your prejudices your posts are just typical war room garbage.

 

[Brett327]

Never thought of you as the willfully ignorant type. Until you are willing to think beyond your prejudices your posts are just typical war room garbage.

Prejudices? We're all just stating our opinion on a future outcome. Yours is no more or less garbage than mine. Best to just take it on board and mover along.

 

[Griz882]

Prejudices? We're all just stating our opinion on a future outcome. Yours is no more or less garbage than mine. Best to just take it on board and mover along.

Perhaps because mine are back by some reading and publications from other minds? Tell you what, find me an article or two that say some form of mileage/EV taxes are not coming and I’ll dive right in to educate myself.

 

[Flash]

Every time I think I might find an EV attractive I am reminded of what I see on the fairly regular 800 mile drive I make to Houston. It is quite often that I see charging stations at truck stops and interstate adjacent small towns with people sitting in their cars listening to music, surfing the net on their phones, or playing with the dog and/or kids, while they charge up. Meanwhile, I am gassed up, fed and on my way.

As someone who is clocking an average of ~30,000 miles a year on the road there is only one trip annually on average where I would need to recharge during the drive for almost every EV on the market today. For the vast majority of folks in this country a range of 200 miles is way more than sufficient for a regular vehicle.

No, you come on Brett. Do you seriously think states are going to give up millions upon millions in tax revenue? Of course they will not. I get it, you have a fixation on Obama era slogans and they are fun to use, but there is no way this isn’t going to happen - this is about revenue and states aren’t giving that up as we already know. It might not exactly be a mileage tax, but several fees (taxes) already exist on EVs, see below.

STATE-BY-STATE FEES

Here's a rundown of the states that currently charge electric-vehicle owners added fees, according to the National Conference of State Legislatures:
Virginia: $64 annual license for EVs.

Of course states are going to get the taxes they need, but that is paltry compared to the annual car tax in Virginia and an amount I would gladly pay instead of what I shell out for even the cheapest gas.

 

[Griz882]

As someone who is clocking an average of ~30,000 miles a year on the road there is only one trip annually on average where I would need to recharge during the drive for almost every EV on the market today. For the vast majority of folks in this country a range of 200 miles is way more than sufficient for a regular vehicle.



Of course states are going to get the taxes they need, but that is paltry compared to the annual car tax in Virginia and an amount I would gladly pay instead of what I shell out for even the cheapest gas.

I think we’re crossing two issues. States tax gas to fund (whatever). More EVs equal less revenue so that loss will be made up by something like a mileage tax. Now, it might not be an actual mile-by-mile tax, but the loss will be recovered as EVs gain popularity.

 

[ABMD]

Because of far few movable parts EVs should be cheaper to operate over time as there are fewer parts to wear out or require preventative replacement. But frequently left out of comparisons are the cost of replacing batteries in an EV. Haven't seen the latest numbers, but I have seen creditable numbers a few years ago, that if you used an EV past the cost of battery replacement costs evened out. And the cost of battery replacement was a huge chunk of change many people could not afford to pay for.

I can tell you, I was quoted $5,500 for the traction battery (the actual hybrid battery) in my Prius. That was pre-Covid pricing. Can't imagine what it is now. It needed to be replaced at 150k miles.

 

[ABMD]

The actual energy is quite a bit cheaper for electricity.

View attachment 36137

Driving with electricity is much cheaper than with gasoline » Yale Climate Connections

Electricity prices are relatively cheap and stable, compared to the rising price of gasoline at the pump.

yaleclimateconnections.org

I didn't bother to read the article...

But does this chart take into account the coming rise in electricity prices? There is a link between natural gas prices and retail/wholesale electric prices. With the price of natural gas rising, it's about 5x what it was this same period last year, electric prices will be going up. US electric generation is almost 40% natural gas fueled.

 

[ABMD]

Holy cow. I live in the desert. My monthly bill is huge in the summer due to ac use and pool filtration. But the cost of my electricity is less than this. On peak summer (depending on months) is 21.3 cents to 24.2 cents. Off peak times in the summer is less then 8 cents. This chart represents almost 3 times the cost of electricity I pay.

California, nuff said

 

[ABMD]

Why, because you find @jmcquate comment a hyper partisan dog whistle of sorts, or because you think mileage taxes are very unlikely? I find no equivalency to predicting a gun grab, which involves constitutional cultural, economic and morality issues.

Mileage taxes have been proposed over and over at various levels of government for a long time. They are just another spin on use fees or taxes, which is solidly libertarian and not illogical. Use fees/taxes are common. It is the theory behind gasoline taxes. Drive more. Pay more. As technology makes taxing by the mile easier and cost efficient I am certain it will happen. Don't expect an equivalent reduction in other forms of taxing that supposedly benefit the driver and highway system.

Don't we already have this on the East Coast? It's called Tolls.