:sleep_125 the x numer of soldier comment was just an example. you tell me where we've defined what a stable Iraqi government is. You tell me what a successful "mission accomplished" is.
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" Senate passes war spending bill with withdrawal deadline"
- Thread starter HueyCobra8151
- Start date
:sleep_125 the x numer of soldier comment was just an example. you tell me where we've defined what a stable Iraqi government is. You tell me what a successful "mission accomplished" is.
These examples by the way...are less than stellar. Yes, the United States didn't sign the Constitution until 1787...however...
-We had that other pesky government in the meantime...oh yeah...The Articles of Confederation...so saying it took 11 years is a little disingenuous.
-Yes we declared our independence in 1776 but it was a pretty hollow declaration in point of fact. The war itself didn't end until 1781...
-It did take longer to rebuild Germany and Japan...although not much...the Marshall Plan ended in 1951 but didn't begin until 1947. On top of that, we weren't running around Europe and Japan for anywhere near as long taking combat casualties. The economic rebuilding really isn't directly at issue...the continued loss of our servicemen and women is. I genuinely think that the American people wouldn't be as up in arms were we simply supply infrastructure/financial/technical assistance to Iraq.
I think the fundamental problem with the American people is that they expected Iraq to be easy. Its the everybody loves a winner attitude.
Changing ones position because of a better understanding of the issue is laudable, changing ones position because of you want to be on the 'winning team' is despicable.
Unfort, I feel most politicians are in the later category. My anger stems from the lack of support of the Commander in Chief during war time. There is a right way and a wrong way to voice decent. Pulling funding and playing political games with the war effort is treasonous.
Its a sell-fulfilling prophecy's, like a waiter thinking a table is going to give a bad tip so he doesn't bother serving them well. The anti-iraq politicians have already decided to lose this war so they can be on the 'winning team' politically.
This whole concept of benchmarks is ridiculous. Every military campaign since the beginning of time has defined goals. The commanders are continuously monitoring the situation and adjusting as needed. War is too complex to establish arbitrary KPIs (key performance indicators) to measure winning and losing. Congress can't even run/manage Washington DC. They definitely can't manage Iraq.
Changing ones position because of a better understanding of the issue is laudable, changing ones position because of you want to be on the 'winning team' is despicable.
Unfort, I feel most politicians are in the later category. My anger stems from the lack of support of the Commander in Chief during war time. There is a right way and a wrong way to voice decent. Pulling funding and playing political games with the war effort is treasonous.
Its a sell-fulfilling prophecy's, like a waiter thinking a table is going to give a bad tip so he doesn't bother serving them well. The anti-iraq politicians have already decided to lose this war so they can be on the 'winning team' politically.
This whole concept of benchmarks is ridiculous. Every military campaign since the beginning of time has defined goals. The commanders are continuously monitoring the situation and adjusting as needed. War is too complex to establish arbitrary KPIs (key performance indicators) to measure winning and losing. Congress can't even run/manage Washington DC. They definitely can't manage Iraq.
MasterBates
Well-Known Member
Like leaving a candy bar in the sun, and hoping it doesn't melt..
How apt that Mr.Nagin has proclaimed it to be a "chocolate city"..
How apt that Mr.Nagin has proclaimed it to be a "chocolate city"..
EM1
Forsan et haec olim meminisse iuvabit
I believe more people voted for the finalist on American Idol last season than voted in the 2004 election. I read it on the internet somewhere, so it must be true
I think one of the largest problems with this arguement seems to be the big question that we keep asking. The question we keep asking, that the commanders and leaders in power need to be asking over and over is "What can we do to make the situation in Iraq better." Unfortunately they took this question and they perverted it into "What do we need to do in order to get the hell out of Iraq."
And people want to compare this to Vietnam, well its pretty easy now to compare it to Vietnam because just like with that war we are more concerned with how much its costing us in money lives and time, forget the moral obligation we have to fix this country that we went into and cut off at the knees. All we need to do now is have some politician come off on the whole "Return with Honor" platform for the 08 Elections and were there again.
Also as far as polls are concerned, yeah great you have a very unscientific cross section of American opinion dictating our governmental policys. Now go to a Walmart and look around and ask yourself if these people are knowledgable about that same question to form an informed opinion. Sorry but the majority of Americans cant get their head around the fact that the Marines and the Army arent the same thing, I dont think they quite understand all the intracacys involved in rebuilding a political and economical infastructure in a country fraught with sectarian violence. Hell if you asked them to define sectarian violence Ill bet most people would think it was a bitch slap contest between two women involving postit notes and staplers.
And people want to compare this to Vietnam, well its pretty easy now to compare it to Vietnam because just like with that war we are more concerned with how much its costing us in money lives and time, forget the moral obligation we have to fix this country that we went into and cut off at the knees. All we need to do now is have some politician come off on the whole "Return with Honor" platform for the 08 Elections and were there again.
Also as far as polls are concerned, yeah great you have a very unscientific cross section of American opinion dictating our governmental policys. Now go to a Walmart and look around and ask yourself if these people are knowledgable about that same question to form an informed opinion. Sorry but the majority of Americans cant get their head around the fact that the Marines and the Army arent the same thing, I dont think they quite understand all the intracacys involved in rebuilding a political and economical infastructure in a country fraught with sectarian violence. Hell if you asked them to define sectarian violence Ill bet most people would think it was a bitch slap contest between two women involving postit notes and staplers.
So says the realtor.
I wonder why they thought that? Was it because the administration said it was going to be short and easy? I would say yes.........
"It could last six days, six weeks. I doubt six months," he said, speaking at the American air base at Aviano, in northern Italy.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2738089.stm
MR. RUSSERT: If your analysis is not correct, and we’re not treated as liberators, but as conquerors, and the Iraqis begin to resist, particularly in Baghdad, do you think the American people are prepared for a long, costly, and bloody battle with significant American casualties?
VICE PRES. CHENEY: Well, I don’t think it’s likely to unfold that way, Tim, because I really do believe that we will be greeted as liberators. I’ve talked with a lot of Iraqis in the last several months myself, had them to the White House.........The read we get on the people of Iraq is there is no question but what they want to the get rid of Saddam Hussein and they will welcome as liberators the United States when we come to do that.
Later on in the same interview.......
MR. RUSSERT: The army’s top general [Gen Shinseki] said that we would have to have several hundred thousand troops there for several years in order to maintain stability.
VICE PRES. CHENEY: I disagree. We need, obviously, a large force and we’ve deployed a large force. To prevail, from a military standpoint, to achieve our objectives, we will need a significant presence there until such time as we can turn things over to the Iraqis themselves. But to suggest that we need several hundred thousand troops there after military operations cease, after the conflict ends, I don’t think is accurate. I think that’s an overstatement.
http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/bush/cheneymeetthepress.htm
Who can manage Iraq? We sure have not been able too........
OK, the majority of Americans (especially those that shop at Wal Mart) are stupid about military stuff/war...
...and are ignorant in general,...A4sForever said:
...and just want easy answers...Pitchlock said:
...and since so few participated, their opinions are suspect.IntruderDriver said:
Pitchlock said:
Hmmm.
Let's see. Congress (a body elected by the people), are self-serving idiots, who don't represent the people (who are stupid anyway), and are unable to make decisions regarding the war.
Gotcha.
If you all saw these same comments on a forum you didn't agree with politically (liberal?) you might point fingers and say "Look how arrogant these people are. This shows you how these elitists have nothing but contempt for the average working person out there. These people hate America."
I'd say the majority of America on both sides of the fence believe that line... All the way back to our founding fathers (who really hated America by the way
)
Several comments. One is that I don't argue through sound bites. Which is one reason I don't like russert. He phrases questions to fish for the answer he already decided he wants, but thats off topic.
Second is that our V.P. is absolutely horrible at spin. I think his public face has been horrible with respect to 'selling' the war. I basically agree with you that the VP has lead to the confusion of the American people. I wish the administration had Tony Snow earlier on.
But I do remember both the Pres and VP saying over and over again that we will be in iraq for years if not decades. They both have consistently said its going to be a long war.
I don't understand how anyone can know how a war is going to go before the fact. If congress didn't accept the worst possible outcome they shouldn't have authorized it.
And how do we qualify how easy or hard it is to rebuild a country like iraq? Only history can say how good of a job we've done. Whose to say that over the next 100 years after we tackle africa it turns out that the historians look at Iraq as a very good model. My point is that we don't have a baseline in country building to accurately measure the quality of our current effort. The only true measure is the binary answer of success and failure. I would hope we are a long way away from accepting failure.
No one can know what the right number of troops we should have. If we had too many we become an occupying force. In this scenario the sunnis and shiites would be united against us. I would rather force them to settle their differences early in the process. If we had too many forces maintaining order this wouldn't happen.
I would not call them soundbites, they are quotes directly from the horses mouth......and an interveiwer does not put words in someone's mouth, if someone is dumb enough to give them a stupid answer to a question I would not blame the interviewer........
Over and over again I heard proclaimations that we would be greeted as liberators, Hussein was an immediate threat to the US, that Iraq's oil was going to pay for rebuilding and that it was going to be an example to the rest of the middle east. Sorry, but it all turned out not to be true.
I would agree that Cheney is not a very good salesman, and he keeps saying things like this that do not give people confidence:
"The insurgency in Iraq is "in the last throes," Vice President Dick Cheney says, and he predicts that the fighting will end before the Bush administration leaves office."
http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/05/30/cheney.iraq/
Again, Larry King did not put Cheney in a headlock and force him say that......
This is more realistic, a little late though:
http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0627/dailyUpdate.html?s=rel
As for not having expertise in nation building, you are right about that. But instead of enlisting experts in the Coalition Provisional Authority who had the most relevant experience on rebuilding countries after conflict we did this:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/09/16/AR2006091600193_pf.html
The linked reporter, Rajiv Chandrasekaran, wrote a great book, "Imperial Life in the Emerald City," which details how many ways the politics got in the way of getting things right in Iraq. Highly recommended for those wanting to get a different perspective on Bremmer, the CPA, and our whole approach to Iraqi reconstruction.
Brett
Its not about whether we made or will continue to make mistakes. What is important is that we keep trying until we get it right.
Now if it can be shown that we are not learning from our mistakes or that we have learned things that prove the situation is un-winnable then we should quit.
People pontificate on these imaginary forks in the road that would have lead to a stable Iraq. I don't see how anyone can expect any of the possible forks not to be difficult and not take time to travel.
I can't tell if the article is valid or not. It feels very biased to me. I noticed that the major players mentioned and critiqued are not interviewed.
I guess we could pull out and watch the Iraq people come together and form a stable democracy on their own. Want to take bets on that happening?
Now if it can be shown that we are not learning from our mistakes or that we have learned things that prove the situation is un-winnable then we should quit.
People pontificate on these imaginary forks in the road that would have lead to a stable Iraq. I don't see how anyone can expect any of the possible forks not to be difficult and not take time to travel.
I can't tell if the article is valid or not. It feels very biased to me. I noticed that the major players mentioned and critiqued are not interviewed.
I guess we could pull out and watch the Iraq people come together and form a stable democracy on their own. Want to take bets on that happening?