Sergeant Major of the Marine Corps claims pay cuts would raise discipline

[IRfly]

Flash,

Which is harder: Go overseas, get shot at, collect shitty paycheck, return and enjoy higher suicide and divorce rates while being held to a higher (double) standard than 99% of Americans; or: Sit at home, collect welfare, get no drug screening, no responsibility, collect food stamps, happily continue to leech off those paying taxes?
When the E-3 in the trailer park is watching his neighbor in the trailer park spark a fatty, eat his steaks bought with SNAP card, and be back at home after a quick night in detox with nothing to fear but a few hours of community service picking trash, he may seriously reconsider sticking around to get ass-fucked by the big green (blue) weenie for another 4-6 years all for the "privilege" to "do more with less."

Pickle

Absolutely this. When ERB hit, I remember all those guys getting involuntarily separated cheering about being able to go straight back to the trailer park and collect SNAP. And when the Stennis got turned around, the only question I bet they were asking was, "Why should I put up with this when I could just go on welfare?"

Please, tell me more about what decreases enlisted morale...

 

[Spekkio]

I think some of the arguments here are a bit unrealistic. The military gives most junior enlisted folks reasonable living quarters, what more can they do? Are the quarters luxurious? No. Do they have great ameneties? No. If you are junior enough do you have a roomate? Likely, at least in the Marines. Do you have to put up with all sorts of BS like inspections, duty and hanging out with dozens of your closest friends? Yup. None of this should be a surprise to those living there or those of us who have/had folks living there though and it meets their basic needs.

The part that seems to escape you is that enlisted quarters are not worth the value of single BAH. Not even close. That BAH is calculated based on the average rent+utilities of a 1 bedroom apartment, not a 115 square foot dorm room subject to inspection at any time. Since you mentioned camp Lejeune, a quick Google search revealed that a 2BR apartment there can be had for E-3 BAH.

You cannot include that full number and the associated tax advantage in his benefits unless he's actually getting the cash in his paycheck or living in a comparable space that his BAH would buy him in town. That is what is 'misleading.' Are barracks adequate to survive? Yes. Are they worth the value of a 2 BR apartment? Nope.

 

[Beefalo]

During my enlisted days lived in A school barracks, C school, ships berthing, etc. Navy BEQ vary greatly. Some were good, decent, and horrible. If they are going to cut enlisted pay it should be put into the barracks. Many Sailors choose to stay out late and do dumb things rather than go back to BEQ or ships berthing. As a junior Sailor I was never really hurting for money but definitely looked forward to each paycheck. Busted my ass to make e5 soon as possible so I could move off the ship and get BAH. My QOL dramatically improved with BAH and e5 pay. Cant tell you how many young Sailors rushed to get married for BAH so they could live out in town. Bit them in the ass in the long run when they divorced or had kids when they werent ready. I feel the military should really push harder to teach junior enlisted financial management and not not talking about the BS monthly GMT. Im talking sending e4 and below to a financial workshop for a few days or something.

I really feel the MCPON and other senior enlisted leaders of the military are out of touch with enlisted Sailors. They are E9's for a reason. E9 should have no problems calling people out on BS and represent the enlisted to senior officers and officials. E9's should spit fire and take no prisoners. Leave the politics for the officers and senior civilians. If I were an E9 I would be pissing alot of people off not playing politics or puppet.

 

[HueyCobra8151]

I think if we have a major pay raise it is not going to raise morale any more than if we fail to raise pay more than the cost of living increase is going to decrease morale. It is not too often I hear Marines bitch about pay - and I don't think it is really a driving factor in joining or staying in. People don't expect to join the military and get rich and it's the camaraderie that keeps people in (IMO).

Do Airmen in cushy dorms have higher morale than Marines in shitty barracks or Sailors in shitty berthing? I doubt it too. I lived in open squad bays for quite a long time after Enlisting, and while it was fun to complain about it, moving to a nicer barracks didn't magically improve my morale. If anything what I see now is guys who get off work, go to their rooms and shut the door to play video games or do whatever by themselves - that isn't improving their morale or unit cohesion.

Things that I see/hear that DO decrease morale:
-NCO's that have been stripped of all power and responsibility by (IMO) overly restrictive hazing regulations. Thus instead of a trainable knucklehead doing some menial task to pay for a mistake and moving on with their lives, now we just do administrative paperwork on them so they can't re-enlist 5 years later when they've pulled their head out of their ass and have been a competent Marine. (I'm not implying that hazing is a good thing).
-Meaningless annual training
-Shit equipment
-A "mission first" mindset going away

I'm sure I could keep going.

Anyway, I think as a military we are compensated very fairly at this time.

 

[nittany03]

I will submit that there are some real goldbricks from time to time in the senior enlisted ranks. Certainly not most, but some. I think it's a combination of the Peter Principle and the idea that sometimes being incredibly naturally good at something blunts your empathy to people who aren't as good, and makes you think that "average" is really higher than it is. I've had truly mixed experience with the Goat Locker as a whole, sad to say. That said, there are some real gems out there who are a credit to the anchors they wear, and I'm a better officer for having known them.

Spitting fire, hazing, and pissing people off is not required. The best CMC I was ever privileged to work with did not a lot of either, and certainly didn't haze or humiliate anyone. The man was a consummate pro and treated the ready room with the utmost respect, but would roll over to no one in looking out for our guys and girls. The best way I can describe the man is that he is no politician, but a consummate and credible diplomat. A "people person" who is not a schmoozer or manipulator.

 

[ltedge46]

I will submit that there are some real goldbricks from time to time in the senior enlisted ranks.

Agreed, no different than the wardroom, every group is a slice of America and is going to have it's share of sandbaggers, but when you get the chance to work with a good one, it's a great experience. My MMCO when I was the MO was one of the best CPO's I've seen, taught me a lot, and earned my ultimate respect and gave it back. My CMC at the same time, not so much. It takes a lot of different qualities to be a good E-9 and I think a little bit of politician is not a bad thing. They need to be able to negotiate and schmooze sometimes as well. As long as they don't forget where they come from and ultmately do it to not to further their own creer but to support the sailors turning the wrenches and swabbing the decks.

 

[nittany03]

Fact. My use of "politician" versus "diplomat" was meant to highlight the negative, selfish aspects of the former term.

 

[Spekkio]

I will submit that there are some real goldbricks from time to time in the senior enlisted ranks. Certainly not most, but some. I think it's a combination of the Peter Principle and the idea that sometimes being incredibly naturally good at something blunts your empathy to people who aren't as good, and makes you think that "average" is really higher than it is. I've had truly mixed experience with the Goat Locker as a whole, sad to say. That said, there are some real gems out there who are a credit to the anchors they wear, and I'm a better officer for having known them.

Spitting fire, hazing, and pissing people off is not required. The best CMC I was ever privileged to work with did not a lot of either, and certainly didn't haze or humiliate anyone. The man was a consummate pro and treated the ready room with the utmost respect, but would roll over to no one in looking out for our guys and girls. The best way I can describe the man is that he is no politician, but a consummate and credible diplomat. A "people person" who is not a schmoozer or manipulator.

I think that the leadership tools applied by SNCOs and NCOs are different because they have different roles in the big scheme of things, and that Huey was talking about the latter not being able to use what's available to them for fear of being punished themselves. Things like when an E-5/E-6 gets taken to mast for making an E-4 do pushups for screwing up. Thus a stack of counseling chits has to be built up before anything substantial can be done about problem children when they could've been fixed by the ones working closest to him on a daily basis, and in the interim you sometimes get blanket policies that punish everyone for the actions for a few in a futile attempt to prevent stupidity from reoccurring.

If a CMC is directly disciplining junior Sailors then something is wrong.

 

[nittany03]

If a CMC is directly disciplining junior Sailors then something is wrong.

True to some extent. I was reacting to Beefalo's remark that "E-9s should spit fire and take no prisoners." And anyone of senior rank is obligated to call shenanigans on bad enough stuff that they see. Including CMCs and officers. We are, among other things, the backstop for what the LPO and LCPO may miss or not be around to see. What's the cliche? "What you walk by, you tolerate?" If a CMC or officer happens to be going into a fan room for some reason and catches two junior enlisted going at it, they don't go running to the LPO to fix things.

 

[Spekkio]

True to some extent. I was reacting to Beefalo's remark that "E-9s should spit fire and take no prisoners." And anyone of senior rank is obligated to call shenanigans on bad enough stuff that they see. Including CMCs and officers. We are, among other things, the backstop for what the LPO and LCPO may miss or not be around to see. What's the cliche? "What you walk by, you tolerate?" If a CMC or officer happens to be going into a fan room for some reason and catches two junior enlisted going at it, they don't go running to the LPO to fix things.

It's not about 'running' to his Chief or tolerating shenanigans. It's about letting the appropriate level get involved and do his job and using the chain of command both up and down. Put a stop to whatever shenanigans you find and if it's serious enough, "Get your Chief and report to my stateroom" is usually the right answer over chewing out a junior Sailor. You probably wouldn't be happy if the XO took disciplinary action on one of your Sailors without bringing you into the loop, so why would you do that to your Chiefs?

 

[insanebikerboy]

Flash, have you ever been an E-3, living in the barracks? Then you don't have a clue wtf you are talking about.


As for the morale problem, more money isn't going to solve it and better equipment isn't going to solve it. It's getting rid of PTS and things like the ERB that will improve it. I'm skeptical about this new Career Waypoints program but time will tell how it works out. It's also not hammering multiple deployments down sailors throats while simultaneously telling them that they are at risk of getting booted out of the Navy just because of impending reductions of numbers, even though they may be a good sailor.

It's also up to us as officers giving truthful feedback on evals to our guys. The current mentality of "everyone gets a medal" for the generation of kids that are the junior enlisted just sets everyone up for failure. Where I've seen and heard guys morale going in the shitter is they were hearing "oh, you are doing great" and then they get a P on an eval or (back in the day) got PTSd out.

 

[nittany03]

It's not about 'running' to his Chief or tolerating shenanigans. It's about letting the appropriate level get involved and do his job and using the chain of command both up and down. Put a stop to whatever shenanigans you find and if it's serious enough, "Get your Chief and report to my stateroom" is usually the right answer over chewing out a junior Sailor. You probably wouldn't be happy if the XO took disciplinary action on one of your Sailors without bringing you into the loop, so why would you do that to your Chiefs?

If my CO, XO, or CMC had to unfuck one of my guys, I would hope that he would then let me know, or tell my DH, who would tell me and my Chief. Then my Chief and I would sit down with the miscreant and have a little talk about making an ass of oneself in front of senior officers. As I would back-brief my Chief if I did it.

I would never tell a Sailor to get the Chief and meet me somewhere; I would do what I've done before: get my Chief myself, explain the issue, come up with a gameplan, and handle the issue together.

The other matter is that this idea of spot corrections is best applied to minor examples of buffoonery. If shit is really bad, you sign a report chit, and that has a standard process up the Chain of Command.

 

[Spekkio]

If my CO, XO, or CMC had to unfuck one of my guys, I would hope that he would then let me know, or tell my DH, who would tell me and my Chief. Then my Chief and I would sit down with the miscreant and have a little talk about making an ass of oneself in front of senior officers. As I would back-brief my Chief if I did it.

But that's the point. As a general rule, the CMC, XO, or CO shouldn't be unfucking one of your guys. Not because they can't, but because it's their division Chief's responsibility to handle those things unless the offense warrants going to mast. If the offense happened because of bad standards, ie walking into a space and it's not a mess, then it's the CMC's job to unfuck the Chief and the XO's job to unfuck the DH, who should in turn unfuck his divo.

I would never tell a Sailor to get the Chief and meet me somewhere; I would do what I've done before: get my Chief myself, explain the issue, come up with a gameplan, and handle the issue together.

Well, whether you send the Sailor to get his Chief or you get him yourself, in both cases you're involving him in the discipline process, which is what I was saying ought to happen.

 

[nittany03]

But that's the point. As a general rule, the CMC, XO, or CO shouldn't be unfucking one of your guys. Not because they can't, but because it's their division Chief's responsibility to handle those things unless the offense warrants going to mast. If the offense happened because of bad standards, ie walking into a space and it's not a mess, then it's the CMC's job to unfuck the Chief and the XO's job to unfuck the DH, who should in turn unfuck his divo.

I think that depends on the severity of the offense. If the XO sees AD3 Umptyfratz with his uniform jacked up or catches him 5 minutes late to muster, that's one thing. Tubing an inspection, gundecking paperwork, or other systemic problems? Yes, the DH, DivO and Chief should get smacked upside the head.

Yes, generally, everyone in a command is going to do their level best to not look like an ass in front of the front office. That's as it should be. I think we're somewhere between violent agreement and quibbling over philosophical details here.

 

[BigRed389]

I think that depends on the severity of the offense. If the XO sees AD3 Umptyfratz with his uniform jacked up or catches him 5 minutes late to muster, that's one thing. Tubing an inspection, gundecking paperwork, or other systemic problems? Yes, the DH, DivO and Chief should get smacked upside the head.

Yes, generally, everyone in a command is going to do their level best to not look like an ass in front of the front office. That's as it should be. I think we're somewhere between violent agreement and quibbling over philosophical details here.

Never get into an argument over details and semantics with a nuke. You'll both get dirty and the nuke likes it.