Service member being an idiot

[HAL Pilot]

You can't use that argument any more. Saying "we won WW2 so you can go fuck yourselves" doesn't work 60 something years later. It's time to move on and start acting like grown ups.

Reading comprehension......

Harrier Dude wasn't saying the U.S. beating Japan in WW2 gave our servicemembers the right to act like idiots, he was saying that it is what brought about our bases there.

 

[pilot_man]

Thanks Hal. What would I do without you? I got what he meant with his smart ass comment.

Maybe that is part of the problem. Instead of looking at it with the "how can we fix this" approach, we instead say fuck them, they deserve what they're getting now attitude.

Do you think it is asking too much to have our people not rape, or punch little kids in the face?

 

[Flash]

.....Japanese don't want us there, so Japanese also tend to blow out of proporiton their reports on the incidents.......

More specifically the Okinawans don't want us there. Many Okinawans don't consider themselves completely Japanese since they weren't part of the empire until 1879 or so. And the 'mainland' Japanese are more than happy to leave the majority of US military personnel stationed in Japan, about 2/3rds or so, on the island. So a bit of domestic politics are in play as well, all politics is local even over there.

 

[Swanee]

More specifically the Okinawans don't want us there. Many Okinawans don't consider themselves completely Japanese since they weren't part of the empire until 1879 or so. And the 'mainland' Japanese are more than happy to leave the majority of US military personnel stationed in Japan, about 2/3rds or so, on the island. So a bit of domestic politics are in play as well, all politics is local even over there.

Is the local gov in Oki still doing the free 5 day vacation for 2 days of protesting the Americans? I heard someone talking about that around here a while ago.

 

[pourts]

Might have overstated and/or poorly stated my point a bit, as both you and Phrog reacted this way...and I am looking at it from the unit level. (squadron etc...)

While I'm not a general advocate of blanket curfews and confinement to base, it seems to a guy from the outside looking in that what they are doing isn't working...so...WTF? What's the plan?

There already was a 2300 curfew for all military anywhere in Japan or Guam when this happened.

 

[Harrier Dude]

I haven't heard of it. At least not an entire 7th fleet no-alcohol policy. How does it not work? You mean the troops don't listen to it or our sailors still go out and rape, assault and trespass when they're sober? I find that hard to believe. There is a catalyst for their actions and that can easily be removed. If it's just that the rule isn't being obeyed, then we as leadership need to fix that.

If you are going to punish everyone in Japan for the actions of a few dumb fucks, then do it with alcohol. Not a curfew.

The Japanese don't go around gang raping our women when they get all hooted up. That's the difference here.

You can't use that argument any more. Saying "we won WW2 so you can go fuck yourselves" doesn't work 60 something years later. It's time to move on and start acting like grown ups.

First of all, that was a smart ass remark about 1945. Just a joke basically, but the fact is that we will determine when we leave Okinawa, not them.

There are around 50,000 Americans stationed in Okinawa, about 30,000 of them troops. Of them, a very small percentage are bad (rapists, thieves, murderers, etc). That's just a simple reality. Pure numbers.

The political reality is that every small incident that wouldn't even make the blotter over here is a flag officer level issue over there. That's why you hear so much about misconduct; not because there is a disproportionate amount of it.

That small percentage of "bad people"? They don't have any regard for the laws and regulations that we already have. Making a new one that forbids alcohol won't help even a little. If you're aiming for a "screw everybody to make a point" type gesture, then ask yourself how well that works over here. I haven't seen it work too well, honestly.

 

[MasterBates]

Why the hell would Guam have a 2300 curfew? It's fucking US territory!

Sent from my PH44100 using Tapatalk 2

 

[pilot_man]

First of all, that was a smart ass remark about 1945. Just a joke basically, but the fact is that we will determine when we leave Okinawa, not them.

There are around 50,000 Americans stationed in Okinawa, about 30,000 of them troops. Of them, a very small percentage are bad (rapists, thieves, murderers, etc). That's just a simple reality. Pure numbers.

The political reality is that every small incident that wouldn't even make the blotter over here is a flag officer level issue over there. That's why you hear so much about misconduct; not because there is a disproportionate amount of it.

That small percentage of "bad people"? They don't have any regard for the laws and regulations that we already have. Making a new one that forbids alcohol won't help even a little. If you're aiming for a "screw everybody to make a point" type gesture, then ask yourself how well that works over here. I haven't seen it work too well, honestly.

Yeah Dude, I get it. I know the Okinawan's don't want us there and do whatever they can to make that perfectly clear. My point is that if we are going to punish every service member in Japan, do it with restricting alcohol, not putting them all on a curfew. If there has to be a knee jerk reaction, then just take away the booze off base. Don't tell every service member in Japan that they have to be off the streets by 11. Let's see how that would fly in the States.

 

[Spekkio]

Criminals don't follow rules. Making more rules isn't going to compel criminals to follow them, either. Whather it's a curfew or no alcohol, the people who elect to ignore the law will continue to do so. You just make it worse for the other 99% of people who follow the rules.

 

[Harrier Dude]

Yeah Dude, I get it. I know the Okinawan's don't want us there and do whatever they can to make that perfectly clear. My point is that if we are going to punish every service member in Japan, do it with restricting alcohol, not putting them all on a curfew. If there has to be a knee jerk reaction, then just take away the booze off base. Don't tell every service member in Japan that they have to be off the streets by 11. Let's see how that would fly in the States.

Either way (restricting liberty or alcohol).....it won't work. Having lived there, I can't imagine how they could even attempt to keep servicemembers from drinking off base. Aside from just issuing a (guaranteed to be widely ignored) order to not drink, go to bars, eat anywhere that sells booze.....what else could be done?

The only foreseeable way (and of dubious legality/rationality) is to lock everybody down on base, close the package store, and refuse to sell alcohol at the club. Even then, spouses could go on booze runs out in the ville.

We already have rules forbidding bad conduct. A small percentage of the personnel ignore those rules. There's no reason to believe that they would suddenly obey a "no drinking" rule.

 

[pourts]

Why the hell would Guam have a 2300 curfew? It's fucking US territory!

Sent from my PH44100 using Tapatalk 2

How you quickly you forget the fucked up ways of the US military. This didn't surpise me at all when the 3 star sent down the word.

Clarification: this applied to units with Japanese parent commands on det to Guam, not people stationed in Guam. I think the people stationed there just have to be out of bars by midnight.

 

[pilot_man]

Either way (restricting liberty or alcohol).....it won't work. Having lived there, I can't imagine how they could even attempt to keep servicemembers from drinking off base. Aside from just issuing a (guaranteed to be widely ignored) order to not drink, go to bars, eat anywhere that sells booze.....what else could be done?

The only foreseeable way (and of dubious legality/rationality) is to lock everybody down on base, close the package store, and refuse to sell alcohol at the club. Even then, spouses could go on booze runs out in the ville.

We already have rules forbidding bad conduct. A small percentage of the personnel ignore those rules. There's no reason to believe that they would suddenly obey a "no drinking" rule.

I guess you aren't seeing my point. I agree. Neither will work. However, there is currently a curfew on service members in Japan. So we are punishing the 99.9% because of a few dip shits. Alcohol is a contributing factor to all of these incidents, so take that away instead of a persons right to be out past 11. If we have to knee jerk, which you know we do, then that would have been my preference.

 

[Harrier Dude]

I guess you aren't seeing my point. I agree. Neither will work. However, there is currently a curfew on service members in Japan. So we are punishing the 99.9% because of a few dip shits. Alcohol is a contributing factor to all of these incidents, so take that away instead of a persons right to be out past 11. If we have to knee jerk, which you know we do, then that would have been my preference.

I do see your point, understand it, and see your reasoning. I just don't see much difference in the curfew and forbidding booze completely. I don't think that either will really work on the island-wide scale.

I actually do believe that "group punishment" can be effective in that it encourages self-policing and internal retribution, but I think that the benefits are lost if its used above the squadron/battalion level or is used too often.

In Okinawa, it ends up being just another redass. It has little if any effect.

 

[phrogdriver]

How you quickly you forget the fucked up ways of the US military. This didn't surpise me at all when the 3 star sent down the word.

Clarification: this applied to units with Japanese parent commands on det to Guam, not people stationed in Guam. I think the people stationed there just have to be out of bars by midnight.

Still doesn't make sense. Guam is US territory. Guamanians(?) are Americans, right? I don't think it's a lawful order to permanently restrict liberty in the US unless it's part of a lawful punishment. Now those on det, I can see how it is a legitimate order. Now whether it's a smart one...

 

[EM1]

Been a while since posted, but feel compelled....
There is NO CURFEW for service members stationed on Guam. No rules regarding time out of bars...just a few "black listed" places.