Stand by for high seas, heavy rolls in NSW and JAGC

[exNavyOffRec]

Glad Trump did this. The Chief was reduced in rank for taking a picture with a dead enemy. He was acquitted of everything else. Many other SEALS did this with no rank reductions. Everyone should be treated equally and that is what Trump is doing.

I agree, I mean it sounds like this guy was kind of an arrogant dick, however punishing 1 and then letting everyone off without a similar punishment just doesn't sit well with me, and if they were to think about doing that I really believe that is a can of worms they didn't want to open.

 

[Brett327]

Let's address the larger, and more important, issue here: POTUS and his CNO are publically out of alignment. This results when the administration abandons the normal means of Executive Branch coordination that is designed to prevent things like this from happening. This is just the latest example in a long string of similar missteps. It's amateurish and makes it look like nobody knows what they're doing.

 

[squorch2]

No one is in charge.

 

[insanebikerboy]

Let's address the larger, and more important, issue here: POTUS and his CNO are publically out of alignment. This results when the administration abandons the normal means of Executive Branch coordination that is designed to prevent things like this from happening. This is just the latest example in a long string of similar missteps. It's amateurish and makes it look like nobody knows what they're doing.

Wouldn't the onus be on the CNO, as he's the subordinate in this case? Or, should there have been behind the scenes between the White House and the Navy prior to this happening?

Regardless, I think anyone with a pulse and halfway paying attention to U.S. politics would've expected President Trump to do this.

 

[squorch2]

“Wrong, but expected” does indeed sum it up.

 

[Brett327]

Wouldn't the onus be on the CNO, as he's the subordinate in this case? Or, should there have been behind the scenes between the White House and the Navy prior to this happening?

Regardless, I think anyone with a pulse and halfway paying attention to U.S. politics would've expected President Trump to do this.

There's no precedent that I'm aware of where POTUS has done something like this. This is why we have an interagency process... or at least we used to. In a normal administration, this would have been coordinated through DoD w/ the White House. The onus is on the WH if they're going to do something radically out of the norm.

This isn't a process foul - it's the complete absence of process.

 

[exNavyOffRec]

Wouldn't the onus be on the CNO, as he's the subordinate in this case? Or, should there have been behind the scenes between the White House and the Navy prior to this happening?

Regardless, I think anyone with a pulse and halfway paying attention to U.S. politics would've expected President Trump to do this.

This being a high profile case I would have thought the CNO would have mentioned what he planned to do.

I do find it kind of ridiculous that the CNO would need to even run it by the POTUS, however nothing with this case has been normal.

 

[HAL Pilot]

With the interest Trump has shown in this case I’d have thought the CNO would have definitely talked to him prior to making a decision. The whole reason the CNO took jurisdiction was because of the Presidential interest.

 

[Hozer]

This isn't a process foul - it's the complete absence of process.

and, it's pretty good populist politics.

 

[Brett327]

and, it's pretty good populist politics.

To appear incompetent?

 

[Hotdogs]

Glad Trump did this. The Chief was reduced in rank for taking a picture with a dead enemy. He was acquitted of everything else. Many other SEALS did this with no rank reductions. Everyone should be treated equally and that is what Trump is doing.

Reduction in rank for Marines is standard for this type of offense in previous cases - if not more severe. The Chief should’ve been reduced along with all of his peers. Taking pictures with dead combatants is counter-productive in COIN warfare and from a general military ethics standpoint.

 

[Hozer]

To appear incompetent?

POTUS isn't interested in appealing to you. That's what makes him so appealing to others.

 

[Brett327]

POTUS isn't interested in appealing to you. That's what makes him so appealing to others.

POTUS' appeal to me is not relevant to my question. Do you think it's a good look to be out of synch with your own CNO? Does that look like good leadership, or good governing? Or, do you believe that Trump's base is energized by somehow sticking it to the CNO, and this was all deliberate? Is there good political value in professionally embarrassing a senior member of POTUS' team, because if that wasn't the desired outcome, then I'm a bit confused about how this all happened.

 

[Hozer]

It doesn't matter what I think. Perhaps if you believe that the CNO represents part of the establishment though in this case, and POTUS believes in his gut that the Chief deserves to retire as a Chief, then so be it, the buck stops with him.

Do I think it is good to be out of synch with the CNO? I don't think a disagreement over a personnel discipline decision equates "out of synch". At least not on a strategic meat and potatoes level.

The reality is POTUS's base don't know who the CNO is. No one outside of the Navy knows or cares who the CNO is.
That's what my reference meant regarding POTUS's desire to appeal to a much larger segment than the minuscule naval officer corps.

The political value here is POTUS sticking up for a career, multi-combat tour, senior enlisted SEAL who made a really dumb decision to take photos with dead people. POTUS decided that the roughly six months pre-trial confinement in the brig was likely sufficient punishment and the lifetime ramifications of a reduction in rank and the humiliation of being a de-frocked Chief wasn't appropriate. Your mention of the perception that POTUS is sticking it to the CNO makes it a two-fer. But I don't think the average schmoe gives two shits who or what a CNO is.

Very few folks outside of the military, really the Navy, are even paying much attention to this beyond the optics of Trump coming to the aid of a SEAL who killed bad guys and got in trouble for....something. The civilian world, which has been said countless times on this board, is utterly and willfully ignorant of the military by design and Trump is really good at taking the oxygen out of a room.

The bullshit about process is just that. Lastly, the fact that career politicians and bureaucrats on both sides of the aisle disdain him, makes POTUS more endearing to a lot of people.

 

[Hotdogs]

The political value here is POTUS sticking up for a career, multi-combat tour, senior enlisted SEAL who made a really dumb decision to take photos with dead people. POTUS decided that the roughly six months pre-trial confinement in the brig was likely sufficient punishment and the lifetime ramifications of a reduction in rank and the humiliation of being a de-frocked Chief wasn't appropriate. Your mention of the perception that POTUS is sticking it to the CNO makes it a two-fer. But I don't think the average schmoe gives two shits who or what a CNO is.

I wouldn’t expect a Navy Chief to conduct himself in the manner in which he did, and as such he does not deserve to retire honorably at that rank. I know this story plays well into many people’s “railing against the institution” and being put down by “the man” narrative, but as a military professional I don’t think we should take kindly to overt political interference in military justice by ignorant and uninformed political opportunists.

It should make you throw up. Then again, I don’t suspect many here have had the opportunity to be in a situation where you know the stench of a dead body, witnessed a man dying, and overall calamity of modern war. Nor have many of you experienced or studied the moral depravity and lawlessness that overtakes a unit with poor leadership such as the Chief in those situations. Actions taken by the Chief and others are a why a educated and honorable Officer and SNCO Corps exist. We just sent a signal to the entire world that our military is not held accountable for crimes in a war zone. You can elate and celebrate the political gain, but just don’t expect any justice when it happens to one of ours. I doubt you’ll find an insurgent, transnational terrorist or Chinese or Russian soldier taking a picture of a dead American boy or girl kindly in the same situation.