Yeah, I’ve seen it too. I just think it’s a shitty way to do business, especially when leadership espouses such a zero defect mentality in so many other cases, even on allegations of impropriety.
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Stand by for high seas, heavy rolls in NSW and JAGC
- Thread starter nittany03
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Counterargument: do we have to publicly humiliate every CO who fucks up? Or does moving away from a "zero defect mentality" also include being able to give someone a quiet change of command, a (most likely) "meh" FITREP that any board would read as "they're done," and the ability to quietly retire IF they hypothetically acted in good faith but just boned something away?
I thought this site had a problem with crucifying COs for things that weren't realistically under their control? I'm not attached to RLSOSW; I have no idea what transpired there. Just saying . . .
Publicly humiliate? No. Be honest in communication? Yes.
If a CO was here one day and then gone the next, the rest of the command deserves to know why. I don't agree with finding out from the cover of Navy Times, but a lot of feedback from the lower ranks is lack of transparency on what is going on and a quiet CoC with the old CO fading into the night would cause a lot of cynicism.
Plus, it's a CO, so they are by definition held to a higher standard.
Fair. But perhaps there needs to be a middle ground where leadership can still message that "yeah, your CO is at a terminal rank because they did X" to lower without bringing the whole Navy Crimes horde in for "loss of confidence." Because maybe that person wasn't an UNSAT CO, just a one- to one-and-a-half-below CO. Transparency is good, but it doesn't always require an auto-da-fé.
exNavyOffRec
Well-Known Member
I find it interesting that in the civilian industry I have seen people who were fired, but it was never said they were fired, a notice was simply put out that John Doe has left the company and we thank him for x years of service.
The policy is to publicly disclose DFC for COs. Whether that’s humiliating or not depends on what that particular CO has done. I take no issue with that. Sunlight is the best disinfectant. Where I take issue is when those firings are done based upon allegations. Sometimes, the ISIC doing the firing knows more details than are publicly known. I accept that too, but that isn’t always the case.
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I’m not sure what to make of this word salad.
How many of those were accompanied by a settlement and NDA? Honest question as it may be better to quietly pay and move on to avoid further problems.
I've seen this with our Air Force and Army colleagues, where quite a few CO firings are kept quiet from pretty much everyone from the public to the folks in the affected commands. When the boss disappears and no one really knows why it breeds a lot of cynicism as @insanebikerboy says. The Navy's way of CO reliefs isn't perfect but it is far better than what I've elsewhere in my government service.
exNavyOffRec
Well-Known Member
none, 2 were falsifying info, 1 was sexual harassment, and one made inappropriate comments. The one who made inappropriate comments was just gone one day, no announcement on her. Interestingly enough only one of these was a guy.
Edit: this are the ones I have first hand knowledge of.
It's a corporate culture thing. Most companies say nothing
I've never seen anyone straight-up fired except those who were terminated "at will" (I live in an at will state). "Hey Joe, today is your last day. Thank you." I've only seen the "at will" thing done once.
What we typically do is we "manage you out" or we "package you out." There is also "eliminate the position", but I've only seen once and the person got a package (money and a iron clad NDA/agreement) on the way out.
The other thing we do is just put people on a list for the next Reduction in Force (RIF). You can terminate anyone in a RIF, literally. So, when you have a RIF, you clean house.
Managing Out
With "managing you out", managers use subterfuge to basically crush someone. They will provide little direction, will document little in email, and will often contradict themselves to suit their needs. You'll get a luke warm mid-year review, followed by a Performance Improvement Plan (PIP) that you will never be able to "pass" despite whatever your company policy states, or to whom you escalate. You will get dinged on anything you can imagine: Internet browsing, coming in late, etc. The comments in the PIP will be extremely subjective and will be able to be swayed in your manager's direction. I don't care what you think your company would or would not do but the company is there to protect the company, not the employee. At the end of your PIP you'll get put on a 30 warning, and at the end of that, you'll be straight up terminated for cause. I've seen it too many times, especially in financial services.
Defenses against this. Take contemporaneous notes of every meeting you have, including the time, date, and who was present. Email this to yourself and/or print it out. If you live in a 1-party consent state (check your state laws), record everything. Your notes will be more believable than your manager's recollection of events.
Most people just bend over, but the smart ones consult with an employment attorney who will guide them through the process of collecting evidence. At some point, if you have enough evidence, your attorney will get involved and depending on how egregious your manager is, you'll either get packaged out (below), retained in your role, or terminated for cause.
An attorney for a company I previously worked for and who specialized in employee investigations / employee wrong doing once told me, "documentation is your friend." I did cyber security and interfaced with the person who I came to befriend. The advice was sage.
Packaging Out
This is the best. You get money, get put on "garden leave" (that is, you basically stay home and do nothing until your last day). The condition of your departure from the company will be that you resigned. But, you'll also sign an NDA/agreement that also releases the company from any and all liability from any and all current or future claims against them.
Great info and advice here. And NOT something you’ll hear about in TAPS. I’ve been out less than a year and have already seen examples of this. No one has your back out there . . .
The only point I was getting at was wonder whether there may come a time where, in the judgement of an ISIC, an individual may not have done a bang-up job in command, but may not have "crossed the line," so to speak, into DFC land. In which case, I was spitballing whether an alternate method of just giving them mediocre paper and letting them go might be more appropriate.
I agree that playing the "I've got a secret" game is bad, and transparency is good. I've seen plenty of emails where people leave in the private sector that aren't "everyone say goodbye to Jane Doe as she leaves after 14 years to pursue postgrad," followed by the happy hour invite and a bunch of nice things said. Those others are generally words to the effect of "effective today, Richard Roe is no longer employed by Company A. Please direct any ongoing work to [manager name]." Which, yes, leaves you going "WTF happened there?"
I agree that playing the "I've got a secret" game is bad, and transparency is good. I've seen plenty of emails where people leave in the private sector that aren't "everyone say goodbye to Jane Doe as she leaves after 14 years to pursue postgrad," followed by the happy hour invite and a bunch of nice things said. Those others are generally words to the effect of "effective today, Richard Roe is no longer employed by Company A. Please direct any ongoing work to [manager name]." Which, yes, leaves you going "WTF happened there?"
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Deleted member 67144 scul
Guest
I would advise anyone who is/will be SELRES and is looking to join a highly-demanding position in a high-powered corporation to bookmark bubblehead's post. What he says is regular business-as-usual, but if you have a secondary job that many would see as a "conflict", you're going to have a target on your back by default. The difference is in how large that target is and that involves a lot of factors that would require a separate discussion.
Indeed, you can terminate anyone in an RIF, literally. The teams I've worked with have terminated people that leads just didn't like for any reason. No justification given or needed. As a servicemember, don't expect USERRA to be a magical force field of protection. I think by this point my multinational corporation has purged all but a few of its Reserve/NG members in RIFs. I survived the last two by strategic politicking. Even if everyone in your team loves you, it may not be be anyone in your team that decides to cut you but the decision may come at the VP-level or similar level looking for "easy pickings", and that VP doesn't know you or your achievements and competence. Consider it, few people, if anyone, like the thought of the potential for their employee to vanish for a period between 2 weeks and 12 months not for maternity/paternity leave, vacation, or medical-related, but for another job. There are some who will take decisive action at the first opportunity. And yes, it can be self-destructive. I've seen the tragicomedy of an overachieving engineer's team collapse and get restructured after he was RIF'd out for his service.
There's no guarantees, and there's no security in corporate culture. What the military tells people about USERRA and ESGR, keep it as a reference, but any management worth their salt is going to be able to take action against service members without you being able to make a case in your defense.
So what's the straight-forward solution? If you don't want to play politics or bet on landing on a team that supports you, don't work in a highly-demanding role in a highly-demanding corporation. If you're an electrical engineer at Apple and you're drilling in the Navy Reserve and on the MOB short list, you better hope you have a very supportive, understanding, patriotic, and pro-military department around you, because they'd be more than happy to replace you with someone on a work visa who will gladly work nights and weekends if it means keeping that visa. Even if you have an ideal team situation, don't be surprised either if it's difficult for you to "move up" past a certain point because they may see your service as a liability with regards to management roles. The best (and most obvious) advice senior reserve officers have given me in this respect is to be a government employee, but depending on one's field and professional/financial goals and satisfaction, that may not be a good option. But even there, do stress caution.
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