Trying to beat this into the brains of (some of) the JOs of my last squadron was a real chore - it's definitely a problem in parts of my community (HSC), although not to the level of it being an EP.
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Stupid Questions about Naval Aviation (Part 3)
- Thread starter Top_Gun_1_0_1
- Start date
These are very good points. I don't necessarily disagree with @phrogdriver 's points either. I just don't think there would be the dollars dedicated to a future RW/TR assault support airframe that would negate the need for 2 pilots.
The CH-53E back in the day was the Cadillac of RW IFR platforms (compared to 46 and H-1 W's and N's). It's probably now the runt compared to V-22's and Yankee/Zulus. With that being said, and as others have pointed out, sometimes the AFCS can get wonky and it's not a comfortable feeling in IMC.
The SoCal helo issue of getting over the mountains to the desert training areas can be challenging. Same same with the marine layer at Pendleton. I know a few guys who nearly balled it up dealing with the two, as I'm sure others on here have dealt with.
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I think we're both saying similar things in different ways. At the end of the day, proficiency reigns supreme, whether it's managing automation or managing your movement through the NAS. When time isn't dedicated to maintaining that proficiency, technology isn't going to necessarily keep you alive.
You combined two things here, single pilot IFR and flying IFR. One depends on access to all flight controls, the other just requires practice.
My contention is that you should be able to fly SPIFR in a rotorcraft with the right flight control and instrument package. There’s no longer much that’s substantially more difficult in a helo that necessitates another pilot, assuming you can reach everything n
We do?! Out of my 3100 or so hours, I think I have about 500 of actual instrument. A little public math… that’s around 16%. That may be lower than some, but 70% total time in IMC is quite a lot, more than I would bet most fixed wing pilots would spend in the clouds or without any kind of defined horizon.
However, even with very limited rotary experience, I agree with the broader point of higher automation and generally easier control characteristics as compared to the average helicopter and the relative safety of operating under IFR in a controlled airspace system. Further, the operating environments helos live in also seem more prone to pilot disorientation and CFIT, at least anecdotally.
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I think this is very true.
I should have said IFR, vice IMC.
My larger point was that helo guys often treat IFR as some kind of white knuckle exercise that one is lucky to survive, and that you certainly need two guys to get through. With the right configuration, and flight planning, IFR should practically be rest time, and the default mode of flight until you're ready to party.
I knew you wrote IMC, but understood what you meant. Which goes back to my original point...it's about exposure and currency.
I disagree when it comes to IFR, which I think is what Phrog's point was. Maybe one caveat is shooting a Special Use approach where you don't pop out with a landing environment in front of you and you end up having to maneuver in shitty weather, but otherwise the mechanics are the same as fixed wing.
Unfortunately the U.S. has a lot of influence from either the Army or civilian-trained individuals. Neither group tends to have a lot of Actual time, relatively speaking, so there's less acceptance of flying IMC. There's also the matter of not having the capability in the airframe. Compare that to the Navy rotary guys I've flown with where, assuming you can maintain terrain clearance, safety is popping up into the goo, because we know we can handle it, and not trying to stay low hoping it won't swallow you up.
It seems you're kind of conflating your time as a phrog and V-22 driver, and the capabilities of each airframe.
I disagree with your point that helo drivers view IFR as a "white knuckle exercise". Most helo ops are done VFR in VMC conditions, or at least Special VFR. There may be a cohort that you have to throw a rock at to get to punch through the marine layer on the West Coast to get to the Yuma training ranges, but it's a few in my experience. Those dudes were called seagulls (throw a rock at them so they'll fly 😄).
TBH, SOCAL TRACON would be overwhelmed if all helo traffic out of Miramar, Pendleton, and North Island was filing IFR as a matter of habit.
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This is so true. The amount of times I’ve been straight-up ignored by ATC is staggering. If I’m not willing to declare an emergency I can pretty much forget about an IFR pickup in flight outside of hopping in the GCA pattern.
I think a lot of people made this mistake coming back from the Restricted areas by El Centro and would get lost/dropped in the shuffle of the traffic all requesting instrument approaches. My trick was to climb up high once complete with the range, like 7-9,000 (I know, laugh at me FWs... "high") and get my IMC clearance with LA Center and they would positively push me with my request for the PAR back into KNZY ahead of basically everyone.
Once had an XO call me a "pussy" over the radio when I elected to do that instead of TERF back and cry uncle and call up San Diego approach and get IMC while dodging mountains in "VFR."
Guess who landed below minimum fuel with no alternate or ability to go to one if missed? Yeah, wasn't me or my student.
Good lord..knowing what I know now, I'd have figured out a way to get that dude shit-canned. 😐
As far as Miramar went, (when there was a marine layer) all the cats and dogs were lining up around the same time to get an IFR pickup before the field closed (midnight or 1 AM IIRC). You'd try to basically get lined up on the final for RWY 24 before contacting SOCAL approach, and hopefully it would be seamless. Didn't work always, depending on how many flights were trying to get back in.
To @DanMa1156 , deep respect for the climb early game and get the pickup from LA Center. Much respect. 🤟
Some play checkers, others play chess 😆
Thanks for the respect.
Full disclosure - it was after 2 lessons learned:
1. As a brand new PQM I was with a Weapons Schooler who at the time, I thought meant "Flying Deity." Dash-1 broke up the flight after multiple IMC breakups saying "alright, this is negative training, I'm climbing and going home via an approach." My Weapons Schooler HAC told me "let's get TERF practice in, this is good for you." I finally cried uncle myself and said "dude, I know where we are, and it's near a mountain and I can't see anything." He agreed, took controls, and just cranked in a climb... only to be immediately called out the SECOND we climbed into the Class B as his tail was in between his legs as Approach told him he was about to get flight violated and had no business being there. It was good for me to see that in so many ways - be assertive, Weapons Schoolers are fallible and hardly fly and are only experts in tactics really, use instruments... so many lessons learned.
2. After my HAC board, a very good DH told me he always answers the "what will the next mishap in your community be" with basically the above 2 scenarios: people always assuming San Diego is good weather, the poor predictions of the Marine Layer, and people not planning for instrument minimums. He swore unless people changed their attitudes there would be a mishap in the mountains to/from El Centro. I concur with the statement unless things have changed dramatically on the West Coast.
All your points are solid, in general, and WRT the specifics of SOCAL helo ops.
The one hedge from an ops perspective we did was to plan a fuel hit at Imperial County (two boxes of Papa Johns) at around 2300, so at least you had the fuel to go missed at NKX and head east to El Centro if you couldn't get in.
Yup, the most dangerous thing helo dudes do is push marginal VFR conditions, without a plan.
I was in the back, not up ICS, on a return trip to NKX from Creech. 2 smart dudes up front. They're coming in from Temecula on the VFR I-15 route, when the marine layer overtakes the field, and it goes IFR. They pick up a PAR and break out at or below mins with a dramatic quickstep as they get the runway environment in sight. As we're taxiing in I unbuckle and head up to the jumpseat, and I see all 3 fuel low lights on (we got 3 tanks for 3 engines)
After shutdown, we had a frank discussion.