Stupid Questions about Naval Aviation (Part 3)

[HooverPilot]

This has probably been asked a handful of times, but I can't find a recent answer. It also is probably 'I don't know' or 'no one knows.'

But if you had to ballpark, about what time will F35s start dropping for SNAs?

I could tell you the month/year that we "think" we will start giving Navy JSF slots out of the VT's, but with how things go, I still expect it to move around a bit... too many variables; budget, testing, elections. Those all influence what will eventually happen.

 

[mad dog]

I have questions regarding carrier LSO's. For the past two days I've been flying with a former F-14 driver (call-sign "Pee-wee" because he looks like Pee-wee Herman) who was not an LSO but he told me:

• The LSO job is not easy to obtain and is a VERY COVETED position.
• The LSO must be VERY GOOD at landing on the boat.
• There is only one LSO per squadron, however, there may be another LSO who is in training.
• Stop asking him questions regarding LSO's because he doesn't know much about them.

My questions are:

• Does an aspiring LSO actively seek and apply for the position or is he/she appointed or offered the position out of the blue?
• Can someone be offered an LSO position and turn it down?
• What happens if an LSO is sick...too sick to do the job that day...who grades the landings?
• If there's only one qualified LSO per squadron, who grades the LSO's landings when they're flying?
• As an LSO, is that your only ground job or does an LSO have additional ground jobs?
• What is LSO training like and what is the duration? Is there a formal school...or is it OTJ training...or both?

I find the LSO position to be VERY interesting...maybe @Recovering LSO will chime in. Even though "Pee-wee" stated there's only one active LSO per squadron...it seems that there would have to be another qualified LSO as a backup.

 

[nittany03]

I have questions regarding carrier LSO's. For the past two days I've been flying with a former F-14 driver (call-sign "Pee-wee" because he looks like Pee-wee Herman) who was not an LSO but he told me:

• The LSO job is not easy to obtain and is a VERY COVETED position.
• The LSO must be VERY GOOD at landing on the boat.
• There is only one LSO per squadron, however, there may be another LSO who is in training.
• Stop asking him questions regarding LSO's because he doesn't know much about them.

My questions are:

• Does an aspiring LSO actively seek and apply for the position or is he/she appointed or offered the position out of the blue?
• Can someone be offered an LSO position and turn it down?
• What happens if an LSO is sick...too sick to do the job that day...who grades the landings?
• If there's only one qualified LSO per squadron, who grades the LSO's landings when they're flying?
• As an LSO, is that your only ground job or does an LSO have additional ground jobs?
• What is LSO training like and what is the duration? Is there a formal school...or is it OTJ training...or both?

I find the LSO position to be VERY interesting...maybe @Recovering LSO will chime in. Even though "Pee-wee" stated there's only one active LSO per squadron...it seems that there would have to be another qualified LSO as a backup.

There are multiple LSOs per squadron, with one in charge. My Prowler squadron had two. There is a something-INST which dictates how many per squadron. Usually JOs, but when we originally transitioned from exped, our head paddles was a baby O-4 who trained up the two JO pilots. The Air Wing also has two lead paddles for the whole air wing; they are senior LTs or baby LCDRs, and generally the most experienced yet current Paddles on the boat. More senior pilots (DHs/head shed) may have been Paddles in the past, but aside from an occasional Case I "old guy wave day" at the end of a line period, they don't wave anymore.

Air Wing Paddles is at the crux of the experience/currency credibility curve; he or she is probably the one on the platform controlling if shit gets real. "Air Wing Paddles to the platform" is usually an indicator of potential shenanigans afoot, and usually not a good thing to hear over the 1MC. Skipper or XO, in extremis, will usually be found in Pri-Fly for Case I/II or Air Ops for Case III. There are always reps there; JOPA in Pri-Fly but hinges in Air Ops, because Case III issues require a more experienced hand. Head shed shows up either place if things have the potential to go sideways. But the platform is Paddles' domain.

Yes, Paddles has to have a level of credibility as a ball flyer; he/she is grading that activity, as an O-3, for people up to and including CAG. The multiple Paddles each squadron has are split into "wave teams" which rotate daily. They act as a team to control the pass under the direction/supervision of the controlling LSO, who reports to the Air Boss in Pri-Fly; it isn't just one guy out there. Paddles don't stand SDO or any other duty afloat; waving is their duty day. And you don't have to be NATOPS qualled in a given T/M/S to grade passes for that T/M/S. Paddles go to LSO school after getting a decent amount of OJT underway.

And with that I'll pass it over to an actual Paddles; I just roomed with two of them for a year or so.

 

[MIDNJAC]

I was not a paddles, but here are some observations….

VFA typically has 3-4 LSO's per squadron. That would include a junior guy who is still working through the UI process, and a senior guy who is normally a wing qual. This manning allows each squadron to throw a body into each wave team.

Selection is both timing, personality, and if yet observed, performance behind the boat. I make that last caveat because most of the time, a guy is ID'd as a new paddles pretty soon after they arrive, and they might well start waving at the field well before the squadron ever goes to the boat. That being said, if that guy ends up sucking, they will find someone else. You need to be at least average, if not a little above average to have the credibility to debrief folks on their passes, which for the most part, ends up being the case.

It's fairly sought after, being a qual that opens up doors in the future (TPS, FRS, CAG Paddles), and I think most folks enjoy it. LSO's absolutely have ground jobs, and if senior enough in the squadron, those jobs can be pretty significant (AOPS, QAO, etc). As for SDO, different squadrons do it different ways, but in a single seat squadron that is pretty body limited, junior paddles often stand no-fly day duty. They won't, however, stand Romeo watch. There is a formal LSO school, located at NAS Oceana. Depending on deployment status, a guy may have been waving for a while in some cases before they ever go to LSO school. From what I saw, it is a lot of OJT.

I'm sure the VFA paddles around here will chime in if any of the above is off base, just observations from a non-LSO VFA guy.

 

[nittany03]

They won't, however, stand Romeo watch.

Romeo. Ugh. Days if not weeks of my life spent freezing my ass off in CVIC that I'll never get back. No decision making power. Just a human switchboard, and a serial annoyer of SDOs Air Wing-wide.

 

[BigJeffray]

Current VFA LSO here so I'll give my $.02. On my cruise each squadron ideally had 4 LSOs (this varied as senior guys left and they trained up new guys, but 4 was the goal). That meant we would wave every fourth day which also meant we didn't stand SDO. We did stand Romeo still and being an LSO really had no bearing on ground jobs, other than that the senior one was the Head LSO (not taxing and wouldn't be considered a primary ground job). I would say being a paddles is generally sought after because it does open up interesting doors, it's fun, and getting out of SDO on the boat is a nice perk. Selection is a mix of timing, performance, and personality. The timing has to fit for the squadron, you can't be a liability behind the boat, and you have to be able to professionally debrief your peers and your seniors (up to O-7 in some CSGs). Basically, pass the "good dude" test.

More specifically for your questions:
-Most guys/gals will typically "rush" by spending time on the platform during flight ops and show an interest. Squadron timing may dictate taking someone who doesn't seem interested or not taking someone who really seems to want it. I've not heard of anyone turning it down.

-Since there are 4 LSOs per squadron, there's typically not an issue filling in. Each squadron has a representative on the platform every fly day, so there are typically 2-3 LSOs in the peanut gallery that don't have specific job on a given recovery, so being limited on bodies isn't usually an issue. Jobs/roles usually change every recovery to get people experience/OJT

-There's a formal ground school that's required for squadron/wing quals, but it's mostly OJT. You can easily have the skills and experience level of a wing qual without the ground school, but you'd still need the school for the qual.

 

[nittany03]

OK, my turn. After reading about Pags's MEU's staff SAR spool-ex, it got me wondering. What, doctrinally or otherwise, do Hueys actually DO? And what was the impetus behind using them in HMLA instead of, say, a 60? I remember hearing something about Cobras and Hueys doing mixed section ops, but what is the role of having that unique cape, and mixing it into a squadron with Cobras? I may have gotten the 10 second version at some point in my career. If so, that bit of info apparently met a beer molecule somewhere it couldn't stand up to. Hence the stupid question . . .

 

[Treetop Flyer]

I have questions regarding carrier LSO's. For the past two days I've been flying with a former F-14 driver (call-sign "Pee-wee" because he looks like Pee-wee Herman) who was not an LSO but he told me:

• The LSO job is not easy to obtain and is a VERY COVETED position.
• The LSO must be VERY GOOD at landing on the boat.
• There is only one LSO per squadron, however, there may be another LSO who is in training.
• Stop asking him questions regarding LSO's because he doesn't know much about them.

My questions are:

• Does an aspiring LSO actively seek and apply for the position or is he/she appointed or offered the position out of the blue?
• Can someone be offered an LSO position and turn it down?
• What happens if an LSO is sick...too sick to do the job that day...who grades the landings?
• If there's only one qualified LSO per squadron, who grades the LSO's landings when they're flying?
• As an LSO, is that your only ground job or does an LSO have additional ground jobs?
• What is LSO training like and what is the duration? Is there a formal school...or is it OTJ training...or both?

I find the LSO position to be VERY interesting...maybe @Recovering LSO will chime in. Even though "Pee-wee" stated there's only one active LSO per squadron...it seems that there would have to be another qualified LSO as a backup.

Does his last name start with a G?

 

[Pags]

OK, my turn. After reading about Pags's MEU's staff SAR spool-ex, it got me wondering. What, doctrinally or otherwise, do Hueys actually DO? And what was the impetus behind using them in HMLA instead of, say, a 60? I remember hearing something about Cobras and Hueys doing mixed section ops, but what is the role of having that unique cape, and mixing it into a squadron with Cobras? I may have gotten the 10 second version at some point in my career. If so, that bit of info apparently met a beer molecule somewhere it couldn't stand up to. Hence the stupid question . . .

USMC went with the Huey to help Bell shareholders.

the reason I had heard it was due to parts commonality between the two versions of the H-1 would help with logistics. I don't remember the exact % but there's supposed to be a fair bit of parts commonality between the H-1s.

I've talked with a few Huey guys on my Mini tour and most seemed to think that the H-60 offered more. From an air department perspective it's much better to have a helo with wheels and a self folding head. You could also make a good argument that they should've bought the H-60 and then the MEU could do its own SAR and you wouldn't need a SARDET.

 

[mad dog]

Does his last name start with a G?

No sir.

 

[TexasForever]

USMC went with the Huey to help Bell shareholders.

the reason I had heard it was due to parts commonality between the two versions of the H-1 would help with logistics. I don't remember the exact % but there's supposed to be a fair bit of parts commonality between the H-1s.

I've talked with a few Huey guys on my Mini tour and most seemed to think that the H-60 offered more. From an air department perspective it's much better to have a helo with wheels and a self folding head. You could also make a good argument that they should've bought the H-60 and then the MEU could do its own SAR and you wouldn't need a SARDET.

42 * 2 percent parts compatible between airframes

And if you want a source to back that up http://www.bga-aeroweb.com/Defense/AH-1Z-Viper.html

 

[Griz882]

I can remember when the Navy looked briefly at the AH-64 "Sea Apache." The modifications made it suitable for operations off of smaller ships like frigates and it would have been on heck of a ship-killer.

 

[Hotdogs]

OK, my turn. After reading about Pags's MEU's staff SAR spool-ex, it got me wondering. What, doctrinally or otherwise, do Hueys actually DO? And what was the impetus behind using them in HMLA instead of, say, a 60? I remember hearing something about Cobras and Hueys doing mixed section ops, but what is the role of having that unique cape, and mixing it into a squadron with Cobras? I may have gotten the 10 second version at some point in my career. If so, that bit of info apparently met a beer molecule somewhere it couldn't stand up to. Hence the stupid question . . .

At the tactical level, Hueys are good for all 13 METs a HMLA is required to do, and particularly useful for light assault support operations. (I.e. small fire team sized inserts of various organisational flavors, routine pax and supply movements). In terms of mechanics, the door gunners with GAU-21s/17s have a dedicated set of eyes looking directly at our 3 and 9 at all times, vice a Cobra where two heads are looking generally around 300 degrees directly forward in our field of view and even less so at night. This helps us identify targets faster and protect the section or escorted assets better. This technique has been proven to save Cobra pilots lives by catching shitheads off axis with a laser beam of 7.62 before they put rounds into cockpits. Before the Zulu and APKWS, the Whiskey sensor was not as capable as a Brightstar Block II, and provided better acquisition/standoff lasing capability. Now with the the Z's TSS, this is not as much of a factor. Also you will hear stories of sending Hueys down low on route recon to draw fire and have the Cobras in the perch to go to pound town on the unsuspecting aloha snackbars shooting at them below, but I wouldn't say that is an SOP, but more so a technique that was used by various squadrons during OIF/OEF.

There is probably nothing a Huey can do that a 60 can't and that discussion is a long rabbit hole that is the subject of many ready room debates from time to time. The Huey as a dedicated SAR asset was an idea that was kicked around but evidently shot down because of issues with cabin configuration (not enough cubes in the back with out serious mods) and having a smaller rotor disk that resulted in heavier airflow that is not optimum for inflatables for SAR ops - or so I am told. As for maintenance, yes there will be significant commonality at the I-Level and above, but not so much at that O-Level, because apparently you can't swap driveshafts and transmissions between the birds without paperwork getting in the way (might or might not have already been tried before).

 

[MIDNJAC]

View attachment 16270 I can remember when the Navy looked briefly at the AH-64 "Sea Apache." The modifications made it suitable for operations off of smaller ships like frigates and it would have been on heck of a ship-killer.

Harpoon? nice

 

[Griz882]

Harpoon? nice

Yep. It was designed to conduct a number of jobs (including CAP). The Navy vesrion had the primary mission of ship-killing while the USMC version was intended to cross the beach and support the infantry. Of course, today the Army routinely operates AH-64's off of ships. You just have to avoid this...